Game inclusion in the DB

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#251 by gabezhul
2016-02-14 at 13:23
Actually, the GK series *is* markedly different from the main series. It has direct map movement, features a point-and-click mechanic and has little to no narration (or rather, even less that GS, which is already abysmally low if you do not count descriptions that are parts of inner monologues as narration). It has some ADV style tachie-dialogs, but considering how widespread those are in JRPGs, you cannot even count that as a solid argument for inclusion.

DK382 actually hit the nail on the head about why they are still in the DB: if we were to remove the GK series, we would need to re-evaluate the GS series, which would pretty much inevitably lead to the removal of the entire series, which would open the flood-gates on the pain-in-the-ass river. As such everyone just silently agreed to let sleeping lions lie and moved along.
#252 by ginseigou
2016-02-14 at 14:10
So, I can conclude that it stays just for a relation reason. It proves my point that the rules are subjective and unfair. Some popular games stay in the database even if they're not fit, while not so popular get deleted. Mods can include more exceptions based on the same reason any time they like.

I propose to include Valkyria Chronicles in the database. It has a lot of adv segments and narration, while it has many fully animated scenes, they're non-interactive and we have School Days. The gameplay takes about 1/3 or less of the game.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 14:46
#253 by yorhel
2016-02-14 at 15:25
The *entire* Phoenix Wright series and anything related to it is in the database per mod exception. The guidelines don't even matter for these games. As "mod exception" implies, this really is exceptional, so you can't use it to make a case for any other game.

But you can make a case that the games aren't worth the exception and that they should be deleted wholesale. Honestly, at this point we might as well.
#254 by PabloC
2016-02-14 at 16:27
Yeah, so is keeping GS series here REALLY the lesser evil? It's being mentioned pretty much in every single discussion about including/deleting stuff.
Couldn't we delete them and make a huge "THIS IS NOT A VN!!!" message pop up whenever someone tries to add anything named "Gyakuten Saiban/逆転裁判/Phoenix Wright/Ace Attorney"? :P
#255 by [deleted]
2016-02-14 at 16:32
^I would not object. We'd have to go through the unofficial relations on a case by case basis to see which actually fit the VN inclusion criteria and which are just fan games in Phoenix Wright style, though.
#256 by palas
2016-02-14 at 16:34
It just dawned on me that arguing for inclusion by daring someone to exclude something else is silly, because that's exactly what they'll do.

Keeping PW here is not only the lesser evil - it's also benefitial, I'd say. Because visual novels are such a loose concept - or rather that's what I've constantly seen here - it's being defined here not by definitions but by borders ("guidelines" as you call it) and PW is, apparently, a border. I mean, it's a reference to where a visual novel might end and some other genre might start.

Deleting it would not only make people add it again, it'd make vndb lose its sight of "the last boundary before the outside". It's being constantly referred to for various reasons and that's not bad.
#257 by beliar
2016-02-14 at 17:20
I would actually agree with Palas here. i see very little benefit in removing PW and lots for leaving the sleeping lions lie.
* The exclusion of the series would create a shitstorm of epic proportions, as LLTQ example gave us some evidence.
* People would try to re-add it constantly, and if you somehow prevent the adding of the title, newbies will come to the board inquiring why they cannot add the title.
* Like Palas said, this is the very demarcation line between what we can still call a VN after half a bottle of vodka and 2 joints of marijuana, and the adventure games.
* The games have been on VNDB for so long that they have naturalized and are referred to as VNs in basically any internet discussion.
So, yeah, I consider keeping them a lesser evil.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 17:21
#258 by abyssaleros
2016-02-14 at 17:28
Just an idea, why not let a red banner pop out, everytime someone opens an entry of GW, which says:
THIS SHIT AIN'T A VISUAL NOVEL!
#259 by ginseigou
2016-02-14 at 17:34
I think portable consoles should have many games similar to Ace Attorney, they're just not so famous. Being famous is not enough to be a good reason to let something stay as for me.
#260 by [deleted]
2016-02-14 at 17:39
I have some thoughts that i want out of my head.
I think a good chunk of Special Games can now be safely removed from the list, not the DB. The New Hybrid rules pretty much safeguard them and having them on the list just not needed.
-- remove from the list --
Melty Blood series
BlazBlue series
Rance series and Alice Soft games
999
Kamidori and Eushully games
-- this leaves --
Ar Tonélico series
Phoenix Wright series
Castle Fantasia 2
The Days series
Lightning Warrior Raidy series

The only 1 that kind of bugs me is, Castle Fantasia 2 as its description " No consistent narration, but otherwise the game fulfills all other VN requirements, so it is kept as-is." makes it seems like its being kept despite the new hybrid rules.

well that's out my head back to X-Files (#VNDBCONSIPACYISREAL)
#261 by beliar
2016-02-14 at 18:09
As someone who has played Castle Fantasia 2 (though admittedly a long time ago) I can say that the story/gameplay ratio is so skewed towards story, that you just cannot call it anything else but a VN/RPG hybrid.
The current rules about narration in hybrid games are supposed to weed out RPGs, as those usually only have dialogues and no narration, but CF2 is no RPG in my opinion. So, yeah, it's in despite the new rules.
#262 by megazerox
2016-02-14 at 21:28
What do you mean by "the list?" If you mean the site, then I have to argue for at least one that shouldn't be removed, 999.

999 should stay. It meets over 50% being VN like, and it has a lot of narration, and plenty of NVL scenes. 999 is pretty much the definition of hybrids that belong on this site.

As for the PW games, I'd argue for their inclusion. Like everyone else said, they would be hell to remove, and it wouldn't be of much benefit. Palas made my argument for me.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 21:32
#263 by palas
2016-02-14 at 21:36
@262 this list, they mean
#264 by abyssaleros
2016-02-14 at 21:36
This list and anybody who comes along and argues with mods about their work who had not even read the FAQ should better shut up next time.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 21:37
#265 by megazerox
2016-02-14 at 21:59
Oh, OK. Thank you!

#264 Is that directed at me? I had seen the FAQ, I just didn't know what the "list" he mentioned was referring to. And I don't think I was really arguing with mods as much as making the case for why LLtQ should remain. Again, I wasn't trying to start a fight or anything, and I thought I, at least, was being civil.
#266 by maverynthia
2016-02-16 at 08:21
So we going to get rid of the Ar Tornelico series finally for being an RPG and not a VN? I know that was debated.Last modified on 2016-02-16 at 08:25
#267 by gabezhul
2016-02-17 at 14:45
Okay, so here is the thing about the AT games: They are JRPGs. You can play the entire game as a pure JRPG without even looking at the VN segments aside of the mandatory ones (such as AT2s Infelsphere segments in Act2). The VN parts are not critical for understanding the story, and while they provide a lot of context for understanding the characters (they are literally about the main character getting into their heads and helping them overcome emotional trauma, confront their past and deal with other psychological issues), ultimately the JRPG and the VN segments are decoupled from each other.

HOWEVER, and this is the reason why I would still argue for their inclusion even after all that, is that these "non-critical" and "skippable" VN segments can (and in the case of AT2, do) outweigh the JRPG parts, especially if one doesn't spend an extra 10 hours on item-synthesis and fetch-quests. If one saves up on topics, in act 3 one can spend several hours just going through one cosmosphere level after the other without ever seeing a bit of JRPG gameplay in-between.

The problem with this particular series is that they are both obviously JRPGs and, at the same time, have enough separate VN content to justify their inclusion. I personally in favor of keeping them in the DB with a lot of asterisks, because I believe it's worth pointing the VN segments out, but to be perfectly honest, if someone would bring up a convincing enough reason for getting rid of them, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
#268 by immlff
2016-02-22 at 23:49
Sorry for barging in so late, but I've been busy for some time and just noticed this topic.
People have already mentioned the most egregious example of "this is not a visual novel" we have: GS (aka PW) series.

Yeah, so is keeping GS series here REALLY the lesser evil? It's being mentioned pretty much in every single discussion about including/deleting stuff.
This! Exactly this! Keeping it is a larger evil, not a lesser one, and this evil only survived for so long due to laziness, indifference and indecisiveness (I'm not blaming anyone in particular here).

I would actually agree with Palas here. i see very little benefit in removing PW and lots for leaving the sleeping lions lie.
* The exclusion of the series would create a shitstorm of epic proportions, as LLTQ example gave us some evidence.
* People would try to re-add it constantly, and if you somehow prevent the adding of the title, newbies will come to the board inquiring why they cannot add the title.
* Like Palas said, this is the very demarcation line between what we can still call a VN after half a bottle of vodka and 2 joints of marijuana, and the adventure games.
* The games have been on VNDB for so long that they have naturalized and are referred to as VNs in basically any internet discussion.
So, yeah, I consider keeping them a lesser evil.
1) is not a reason to keep something, and never should be. Anything other would be just caving in to the outside pressure.
2) is not an issue. We dealt with this before and we can deal with it again. Stuff like that happened before with other games (Persona series for example) and we are still alive and relatively well, somehow. If anything, I'm willing to spend all my free time for a 1-2 weeks dealing with it myself.
3) Using something that is "not a vn at all" as a demarcation line is pretty silly. We have better candidates for that, like Ar Tonelico series or "... Days" series.
4) That's really not a good reason. Mistakes should be fixed, better late than never. And what people talk somewhere on the internet should never stop us from fixing our stuff here.
Actually, if you think about it, people calling it a vn at other places/websites is at least partially our fault and this is yet another reason to fix the mistake.

After all, we only kept it in the past because echo was strongly advocating for it (as well as adventure games in general) and because of my own indecisiveness. At one point in the past we had yet another discussion about removing not-a-vn entries and I managed to convince Yorhel that it really would be better to remove the GS series, but then, even with his agreement, I didn't have the courage to take the initiative and do it myself.

Keeping it for so long already did a whole lot of damage. I can't even guess the number of pure Interactive Adventure Game that were added by various people because of its presence. Yeah, we do have that page in the guidelines saying not to use PW as a reason/example, but this much won't stop people, most of them don't read the guidelines to begin with. Moderated edit system would help, but alas...

I'm willing to be called nazi-mod or whatever else people can come up with and deleted it myself. As well as monitor and delete every duplicate added after that for a while. At the same time, I'm not someone who acts recklessly and changes stuff without a prior discussion or some kind of agreement. So it's your turn now.Last modified on 2016-02-22 at 23:50
#269 by kilicool64
2016-02-23 at 00:23
@268 I agree with your reasoning. Potential controversy a change in policy could cause should not be a relevant factor for deciding whether or not to go through with it. I haven't played any games in the series, but if they don't fit this database's definition of VNs, then they have no place here. Their removal would make this site's policies more consistent and therefore help give people a better idea of which titles are allowed here and which aren't, initial complaints be damned.
#270 by derakino999
2016-07-06 at 05:28
The rule about time is so damn stupid:
Just because a game has more gameplay than narrative it's not considered a VN?
You must be fucking kidding me
#271 by dk382
2016-07-06 at 05:49
Derakino, lashing out like this isn't going to change anything. If you would like to engage in a dialogue in a sensible manner, then I and many others would be happy to do so. But these outbursts won't get you anywhere.

Ratios are absolutely important, and we are not kidding you. If 30 hour game has five minutes of a VN-like segment, is it a VN? At what point does it turn from not a VN into a VN? When people are looking for a VN, they're usually looking for a pretty specific kind of game. Including all kinds of other games in the DB just because they have slight traces of VN-like elements dilutes the database and makes it harder to use for people who actually want to have a VN-like experience. That's why these rules are in place.
#272 by derakino999
2016-07-06 at 06:24
You're right. I'm sorry.
Back on topic, yeah i agree, that's an exaggerated difference in gameplay/narrative.
Although not completely agreed, 'cause that's an exageration im havin a hard time tryn to compare to something existent.
Srsly, i know your point but, such a case would either be: an in-game mock to VN's or a helluva short story, like most NES games, for example, Ninja Gaiden or Astyanax

Now, Ninja Giaden (or Astyanax) is not a VN but not just because of time. It was centered towards action-centered gaming. Sure, the story was polished af, but you can see, and the developers and everyone knows it's obvious, it was aimed not to a story-viewing (VNs) gaming but to an action-gaming one.

Now that would be, i believe, a good way to measure something.

Was LLTQ aimed towards raising simul gamers? Or towards VN gamers? Who are the ones who usually look for that game and who like it? What do people focus on more, the gameplay or the story?
The same for Gadget Trial. It's audience are SRPG gamers like Fire Emblem, Brigandine, Tactics Ogre, i dunno...more, or was it more in the ways of VN fans who like a gameplay to their games?

Saying which part of a game is the most important one is a subjective thing, but regarding gadget and queen, I'd answer the previous questions with something objective: they appeal to both kind of audiences.
And that's what makes them hybrid, thus, entering in the domain of interest of this site.Last modified on 2016-07-06 at 06:39
#273 by gabezhul
2016-07-06 at 07:23
^You are kind of missing the point. It is not about "importance" or "who is it aimed at". It's about adhering to the actual mechanical conventions of the medium and thus our inclusion criteria.

When you are comparing anything to visual novels, you should never do so to a hybrid. Take a pure VN for a baseline. A Pure VN is a story told through narrated text using either ADV or NVL format and using audio- and visual-elements to illustrate and reinforce the written elements instead of replacing them (contrast a fight-scene in a VN with a cutscene in a AAA spectacle fighter; one uses the visuals to give a rough illustration, the other conveys the whole ordeal through visuals). The more of those elements are missing, the less of a VN the title becomes.

Generally speaking when people come to our database, they are looking for *pure visual novels*. Not sims, not adventure games, not fighting games. There are other sites and databases for those. They come here for the *pure visual novels*. All the rest are just extras that are allowed to stay for the sake of completeness, but they are *not* the reason the DB exists, and if those titles don't even fit the cursory criteria to be called a VN-hybrid or somesuch, they are removed, because our goal here isn't to create and maintain an "any game with textboxes" database. I really don't understand why this is so hard to get for some people.
#274 by dk382
2016-07-06 at 07:52
I basically agree with Gabezhul, although I see merit in examining intent at least a little bit.

Was LLTQ aimed towards raising simul gamers? Or towards VN gamers? Who are the ones who usually look for that game and who like it? What do people focus on more, the gameplay or the story?
LLTQ is basically aimed at raising sim players, or fans of choose your own adventures. Outside of the VN community, I've never seen anyone say "check out this visual novel" but "check out this choose your own adventure" and that kind of thing. A lot of the discussion and the marketing wasn't about "look at the great story and writing" but "look at how many ways this girl can die horribly from your mistakes." It seemed to become successful among a wider audience by advertising its gameplay aspects. It's kind of murky, however, because within the VN community there are definitely people who see it as a VN and talk about it as one, and Hanako Games does do some promotion among VN fans. That never felt like its primary audience however.

The same for Gadget Trial. It's audience are SRPG gamers like Fire Emblem, Brigandine, Tactics Ogre, i dunno...more, or was it more in the ways of VN fans who like a gameplay to their games?
This one is much less ambiguous. This was very obviously a game aimed at strategy gamers. There is so very little actual story, and it's not even narrated in a way a normal VN is. It's seriously extended battle sequences one after the other with only very brief interludes in between them. It was never a thing anyone could say "Hey VN fans, check this out" with. Compare this with Kamidori Alchemy Meister. It's still pretty heavily gameplay-focused, but it's also a kind of game you can actually suggest to VN fans who want a fantasy story or something. There is a very substantial amount of uninterrupted VN-like sequences to be had there, it can easily be the draw.Last modified on 2016-07-06 at 07:54
#275 by alexlung
2016-07-08 at 08:38
I dont get how alot of games like neptune arent part of vndb either.

there are options for auto mode, skip, shit tons of dialogues etc, dialogues is actually more than the gameplay itself.

like how baldr skys gets added into vndb when it has tons of battles. you might as well remove all rpg visual novels games since they arent visaul novels either right?

as well as all simulation games where you can raise affection points / slave games.

anyway all dating sims that involves standard vn text and reading should stay since they are a visual novel afterall. making choices etc.

this shit is kinda the same as myanimelist. where they do not allow webtoons or any mangas that are not made to commercials to be added.

@gabezhul, about people coming for pure visual novels, you are dead wrong. people like me come to looks for all sorts of different genre to my liking, people should not judge based on what they think and stop assuming things please