Game inclusion in the DB

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#451 by lsssk21331
2018-08-04 at 01:03
is this kind of game should be added on vndb? DLsite
Here some screenshots:
#452 by ramaladni
2018-08-04 at 01:27
"Full Voice Motion Comic"

I'm not sure this can be called eroge or even a game, but it's an interesting concept. I don't believe there are precedents, so perhaps not.
#453 by styr
2018-08-04 at 02:54
Why is this "game" listed on vndb? I tried to find some way to report it to the admins but I couldn't find anything aside from vandalizing the page itself, which is not something I find appropriate whatsoever.

Clearly this does not belong here, right? I really, really hope this title being added was a mistake, otherwise I'm afraid that this database will get inundated with similar poorly made 3dcg """visual novels""".

I Love Daddy
#454 by [deleted]
2018-08-04 at 03:32
#453 A VN being poorly made isn't grounds for deletion. Besides, you're a bit late; the database is filled to the brim with 3DCG crap. If it offends you that much, then just filter out "Pre-rendered 3D Graphics". Don't try to get games deleted because you don't like them.

#452 Under that line of reasoning, most VNs aren't games. Either way, Quartett! is on the database, and I don't see how #451's suggestion is really any different.
#455 by sakurakoi
2018-08-04 at 04:12
most VNs aren't games
to begin with, VNs are not supposed to be games. This thread is about hybrids that are possibly more VN than game.

On a side note, on the other side of the spectrum... why don't Artist CG with Text count as Visual Novel? Is it because Windows Photo Viewer is not a Game Engine? Seriously, the effort to turn Artist CGs into Visual Novels would be little (since the text can just be transferred into ADV text boxes, NVL or like just mentioned: Comic Style), only time consuming and coming with a loss of rep. Literary nothing would change besides pressing the arrow keys to advance. I wonder if this is done to prevent flooding, with "low quality" works~

Screenshot Novels sure should have their own db though but welp, might as well just get rid of anything that is no originally Japanese through Search filters. At least that is sort of implemented here while... for indeed, a certain database for English translated Far Eastern (Web and other) Novels is buried in Chinese. According to the holy admin, filtering by language would be heresy, one should not have the choice to not see certain languages (but hey, just exclude all Western stuff~), so woe anyone who would like Korean or Thai.
#456 by [deleted]
2018-08-04 at 04:30
This thread is about hybrids that are possibly more VN than game.
It was a jab at the original poster. #451's post is basically a visual novel; it's certainly closer to that than, say, an RPG Maker game or some shit like that. It's not even really a hybrid. It's just a visual novel with floating textboxes that happens to resemble a manga.
#457 by eacil
2018-08-04 at 08:00
Nowadays, it's a mess. Not really a problem when it's not some cheap publisher trying to play Frankenstein.
You have a real publisher which adapted three CG sets from Gujira into a manga. Otoko no Ko Soft did the same with Netorare Otokonoko Gujira illustrated. An actual visual novel turned into a manga with nothing newly drawn... And quite an unholy abomination! Sakurakoi is right, you have CG sets with 500+ pages which could be turned into VN. I even remember one with ADV presentation! Soundless but you flip a page = you click in your VN. The thing is 742 pages long.

For the case of #451. They are chapters originally published inside Comic LO. They got this treatment (animation, voices, terrible terrible colorization) by a publisher which did that to other artists like Type.90 or Higashiyama Show. Not new.
They indeed look like Littlewitch early productions, kinda. You could find difference, I mean, they were not made and thought for this purpose (and they suck) but they do fit vndb rules (all of them). That's why an admin should alter the rules to get rid of animated manga or "motion comics". You can get away from explaining why the other stuff is forbidden with the help of the word "game" (aka software) but the platform website screws that and needs clarification (embedded piece of software (?) like Flash/Canvas, or youteube video for recorded translations). I am saying that because it's not the first time I see this debate.Last modified on 2018-08-04 at 12:32
#458 by styr
2018-08-05 at 04:33
>a certain database for English translated Far Eastern (Web and other) Novels is buried in Chinese

@sakurakoi, you talking about NU?Last modified on 2018-08-05 at 04:34
#459 by sakurakoi
2018-08-05 at 06:15
^NU indeed, I'd be glad to have another db for that but I found lndb lacking (tags? traits? Nah, just target audience), especially since it only lists Light Novels and not Web ones which in contrary to amateur anime (there I find it reasonable to exclude amateur ones) can indeed be enjoyed if not even of high quality. (Them being translated and for long also serves as little quality control, not always though since passion can be misdirected)

Soundless but you flip a page
Well, maybe someday the consensus is that Visual Novel is short for Audiovisual Novel but that is as unlikely as having proper character/object representation (it does not need to be sprites) as least common denominator to exclude works/digitized novels that only have backgrounds (never mind filtered photo ones) and not even CG (that's not visual!).
#460 by [deleted]
2018-08-05 at 06:19
MangaUpdates has pretty much any light novel you’d be looking for, along with a decent tag system. It might be lacking a bit on the Korean and Chinese side though; I honestly only look for Japanese stuff.
#461 by lsssk21331
2018-08-07 at 12:06
so it should be added or not?
#462 by savagetiger
2018-08-07 at 19:31
Most likely not, does it even have narration?
#463 by beliar
2018-08-07 at 20:07
Well, it doesn't have gameplay, so narration is not a requirement :-)

I have checked the trial of the game. It starts in autoplay by default, but you can immediately turn it off, so it basically plays like a VN, you pressing 'next' to advance. Every page looks like an excerpt from a comic book, 'bubble speech' and all. It technically fits all our current guidelines, so I'm leaning towards inclusion.

I don't know if the game becomes any different further on than a few minutes of the demo I played, but if not, you won't hear any objections from me if you add it to the DB, lsssk21331.
#464 by sakurakoi
2018-08-07 at 20:59
Every page looks like an excerpt from a comic book
Do you mean with "excerpt" a single panel? If so, I agree and have no objections. The demo looks like it is indeed.

Otherwise I think that format is also what should separate Manga and alike from (Audio)Visual Novels. While Visual Novels do present several points of views at once, in terms of field of view, those are always in sync with the other perspectives and are not the same as typical panels.

So if there are time-shifted panels at once then it should be out even if they appear one after the other, as long as they are shown at once it's NG imho.

Currently it is not like we have any guidelines anyway regarding the other side of the spectrum. We only have for excluding games, not novels or manga, we have no minimum amount and format of visuals (and audio) specified.
#465 by beliar
2018-08-07 at 21:14
Do you mean with "excerpt" a single panel? If so, I agree and have no objections.
Yes. From what little I played, a screen of this game acts like a single panel of a comic.
#466 by savagetiger
2018-08-07 at 22:27
^just realize the you're opening a huge bag of worms to also include all the other motion comic type of stuff that is out there.
I personally thing it's different enough to not fit with the database.
#467 by kametec
2018-08-07 at 22:57
As long as games like that get their own tag so they can be filtered out I don't really mind their inclusion.
#468 by takashirei
2018-08-12 at 17:58
Someone added Zero Time Dilemma which is certainly not a vn and even was deleted from the database at least once
#469 by savagetiger
2018-08-14 at 21:06
Satsuriku no Tenshi going by the steam screenshots this is 100% an RPG maker adventure game, doesn't even have ADV. Don't know about real narration.
#470 by [deleted]
2018-08-19 at 01:06
How is Monster Mind a visual novel?
#471 by eacil
2018-08-21 at 04:06
I am asking for the undeletion of Tokyo Dark.
It has (first person) narration.
You read more than 50% of the time (atm, read for 4H and I don't see the game suddenly changing about that).
Presentation is ADV.
It's a point and click? What's a point and click if not another form of Interactive Adventure Game where choices are not listed in menus but directly located on the screen?
As for the gameplay, it is cheap, all it does (and is made for) is to lead us (by literally walking, what resumes the gameplay...) to the next text/event. Like the line above, what's this walking if not a non static version of BCG division with one more choice ("go to")? I only got one negligible mini-game until now (puzzle only made for the ambient).
It has pretty much all the ingredients of an old ADV where you walk around unlocking the next event.
Fit the bill for hybrid, way more than any RPG hybrid (cause the gameplay here is focusing on the story, what is not the case for a RPG).
#472 by eacil
2018-08-25 at 14:06
Bumping my request now that I have finished the game and it appeared there was no puzzles at all.
Beliar, I know you are here! I see your head sticking out of the bush. You don't have to waste time debating, all you have to do is accept. Oh, and if one of the five other dbmod wants to undelete it, it's fine too! *wink*
#473 by beliar
2018-08-25 at 14:37
*Gasp* Eacil has spotted me! It means my custom made Eacil-proof camouflage has failed. God damn those snake oil sellers. They must have sold me a cheep Chinese knock-off!

Ehem... When I previously deleted the game, I based my decision on watching some of the gameplay footage on Youtube. Maybe I haven't watched enough and the game does deserve its place here, but I would like to hear a few more opinions. It cannot be that Eacil is the only one who has played the game on these boards... ;-)
#474 by seniorblitz
2018-08-25 at 15:10
Tbh I don't know why TD was deleted in the first place, I'm with Eacil here, while I haven't finished the game yet, the "gameplay" is mainly used as an excuse for more interactive possibilities, but you still spend most of your time reading (like moving to point A to B on 1 minute between constant reading sessions is not enough gameplay to declassify it IMO). It is pretty much a point-and-click VN hybrid.
#475 by eacil
2018-08-25 at 23:46
I think the reason is simple, Beliar like many others here interpreted the need for "lengthy consistent narration" as the need for "long uninterrupted sequences of text". However, this works only with games where the gameplay is independent from the story, like RPG. It has a value by itself. Story and gameplay are separated and therefore *interrupt* each other. To ask for "long uninterrupted sequences of text" makes sense here.

On the other hand, we are talking about an adventure game, which happens to be the same as visual novel (>subcategory), the only difference being that non VN ADV chose to be more interactive and are narrating a certain % of the story through non textual means. With Tokyo Dark, you are constantly interrupted by walking sequences but that would be like removing Kindan no Ketsuzoku because the menus are constantly interrupting you. I briefly explained how Tokyo Dark is the exact same as a more visual novel-ish ADV with only choices (like what was the norm in the 90') by highlighting the correspondences. You can do the same between them and "traditional visual novels" (or even a plain kinetic novel) by explaining how descriptions and actions are encapsulated inside menu choices instead of being served to you through the prose. Well, that's interaction for you.

With Tokyo Dark,
Itou took a taxi to Kabukichou. He left her on Yasukuni-doori in front of Ichibangai. As shady as ever, the red-light district was reeking blablabla. She moved through the crowd of [...]. The trash were spilling on the street and in the middle she found a picture of [...]. She finally found the cabaret Kobayashi was talking about and walked inside without prevarication. The place [...]
is decomposed as:
>map >Kabukichou
As shady as ever, the red-light district was reeking blablabla.
>walk >click trash
The trash were spilling on the street and in the middle she found a picture of [...].
>walk >click cabaret
The place [...]
The absence of interruption can't be applied here because the gameplay is part of the narration, they are dependent from each other.

That or he forgot the requirements and his preconceptions about point and click guide his decision. That would be lame, right?


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