Game inclusion in the DB

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#476 by savagetiger
2018-08-26 at 01:36
It's still obviously a point and click game though. If you add it back it's going to be another borderline case that people are going to use as an example to add other point and click games to the database no matter how much puzzle solving might be involved.
#477 by eacil
2018-08-26 at 02:45
Precautionary principle is not a valid argument against the inclusion of a game. It's such a bad excuse to forbid something fine because of potential bad/stupid behavior.
And it's less borderline than all the sanctified RPG we have already.
#478 by sakurakoi
2018-08-26 at 03:39
And it's less borderline than all the sanctified RPG we have already.
And that's not a valid argument either, especially since those RPGs and Adventure Games are quite different.

Heck, you are exactly doing what #476 is afraid of, namely vague comparison which always will claim that their case is less borderline. Whether true or not, the problem is in ascertaining that.

Gameplay being part of/focusing on the story is actually worse than it not being. We call it Visual Novel after all and adventure games tend to be, well, games which you primarily feel like playing even if you read a lot, reading is part of the gameplay one could rather say.
#479 by eacil
2018-08-26 at 03:57
I said it in a way "if you want to play this game then...", "talking about bordeline game...". My point is that if he wants to forbid hybrids based on this argument he should starts with more obvious targets like RPG where the gameplay is not at the service of the story. Every hybrid would be forbidden in the end. As for why this game should be included, I already made my argument in the previous page.

And the gameplay of a book is to read the story. Cool.
And no I wasn't feeling like playing first with Tokyo Dark, I was narrated a story through the use of text and action. You forget that at the chore of VN is also a huge part of interaction. Choices, you know, and nothing prevent you to make a massive use of them, and "feel playing" through a tree view. Because... your separation between VN and ADV is bogus in the first place. Kinetic is not the role model, nor books (minus oc choose your own adventure books).
#480 by dk382
2018-08-26 at 07:23
I'm not making an argument for or against this game in particular but I think in general, I'd say that games that have the gameplay well-integrated into the story qualify *less* than games where the distinction is large with completely separate gameplay and story segments. Because then you could at least say that there are distinct VN sections and non-VN sections and games can qualify for having a large amount of VN gameplay. But when you merge VN-style gameplay with other styles of gameplay, they become something else entirely and no longer qualify. This is a large part of the reason we removed Long Live the Queen.

But then again, I'm of the opinion that the original style of ADV games from the '80s and '90s probably don't even qualify as VNs, and the only reason I don't argue for their removal is because of their historical ties to the VN genre.
#481 by sakurakoi
2018-08-26 at 08:16
But when you merge VN-style gameplay
There is not even VN-style gameplay, any gameplay would belong to the "game section", to keep it simplified and indeed it includes choices. Choices are largely an exception because by no means they would cover 50% of the time spend on the work. Adventure game choices ain't simple choices, for anything can ultimately be called a choice but some may take much longer to make than others.

But then again, I'm of the opinion that the original style of ADV games from the '80s and '90s probably don't even qualify as VNs
Welp, I have seen to few of those to really comment on that... since I have been at best into '90s western adventure games or rather just LucasArts (which are not so different to what e.g Daedalic does now) but I can imagine how much more laden with choices others must have been considering how indeed...

Dating Simulations became rare in Japan. Not-Japan meanwhile started to produce them recently and the reason is simple: To have filler. When removing the gameplay from many Dating Sims it is obvious how few text actually remains. Similar is indeed Long Live the Queen where most time is spend on playing and where the most memorable thing is her giant forehead! (oh and the bad ends, i.e it's entertainment, not some deep story&lore)

Visual Novels or rather (Adventure Games) first where not meant to tell a story, that's what books are for after all! Or something like that. Though the point is that just having someone write is cheaper than also getting art, code and an actual audience which does not need to pay thousands for the prerequisite. After all, it was games first, real reading material for entertainment followed at least one decade latter. Selling something as a game is much more profitable than selling it as a digital book.
#482 by seniorblitz
2018-08-26 at 20:03
Tbh the gameplay is pretty sporadic só It is hard to classify TD, sometimes you spend most of the time Reading, And the gameplay can vary from a 30 Second Walk from point A to pointer B or some puzzle solving, but considering How the game is even marketed as VN by the devs, I would assume (from experience of playing It for a while also) that It would classify.
#483 by eacil
2018-08-27 at 03:36
Not to be a pain in the ass but I leave tomorrow, you know, summer vacaciones, and I doubt both of us, Beliar, want to report this issue to a later date. I am asking for a procedure acceleration, your honor. I don't think a third player will add something (you know how people on vndb don't care about EVN) and you already watched playthroughs when you deleted it.
It's not Long Live the Queen (took a quick look but am intrigued). Come on, this game is really not challenging vndb requirements for inclusion.
The text is displayed through traditional (too big) ADV box and the interactivity is resumed to walking from text to text you could convert without much effort to pure VN, plus one time when you need to switch lights on in the right order (trivial). You have 4 errands to complete to move the plot but they actually have significance story-wise (3 of them flesh out the Collector as someone who answer wishes but also reap your most cherished object, 2 of them confront you to a moral choice with one of them unlocking an ending). That's all for the controversial. I don't know what more do you want to make your decision.

Edit: I am reporting the controversial but needless to say you spend more time reading than walking (even more if you click on everything like it should be imo) and that you have times when you transition without walking.Last modified on 2018-08-27 at 03:54
#484 by kiru
2018-08-27 at 06:48
^How much did you click on things? That's the biggest separation between a VN and a western style adventure game. A VN, as we call them, has constant text. A western style adventure game has its text by clicking on a million things. You rarely to never have more than a minute of dialogue before the next choice comes, and so on.

Honestly, there shouldn't really be any need to argue. I feel like these two genres are so different, that it should be fairly obvious if the player is forced to search for all kinds of things to click on (or even just CAN, optionally), or if the game is just a self-running story where once in a while you gotta click on "exit" or some person.
#485 by kominarachromer
2018-08-27 at 07:04
#484 So, should Doukyuusei and Kono Yo no Hate de Koi o Utau Shoujo YU-NO be deleted then? Both contain a significant amount of thing-clicking, and neither are listed on the special exceptions list, so obviously they must have been added erroneously, right?
#486 by dk382
2018-08-27 at 07:09
@485 Those are the kinds of games I said that I don't consider VNs, and I'd argue for their removal if it wasn't for their historical significance to the genre.

Generally speaking, I feel like the more interactivity involved in the progression of the text, the less of a VN any given game is. And tokyo dark seems to have a lot of such interactivity.Last modified on 2018-08-27 at 07:16
#487 by leery
2018-08-27 at 07:17
If you were to remove these Look-Think-Talk games, you would be removing pretty much every pre-1995 game...
#488 by dk382
2018-08-27 at 07:23
Which is part of the reason why we aren't going to remove them. I'm just stating my personal opinion, and as I've already said, I'm not arguing for their removal.Last modified on 2018-08-27 at 07:24
#489 by kominarachromer
2018-08-27 at 07:33
#486 I know what your stance is, and I even agree with it to some extent; I was asking what #484 though about it.

Nearly ever non-RPG on VNDB prior to the release of the original Leaf trilogy follow the same format; select verb, select noun to preform verb on, read 5 second to two minute long description of verb’s effects, rinse and repeat. Really, besides the text-oriented nature of the titles, it’s identical to Maniac Mansion. Some will even go the extra mile and have a goddamn text parser so you can get the authentic poor 80s kid experience. YU-NO and Doukyuusei automated the process (well, at least outside of YU-NO’s prologue and epilogue) but it’s still the same system. Sure, some title will have long sections of VN style reading, but these are mostly relegated to H-scenes and almost none of them go over 30 minutes long.

My point is, the special games list needs to include “every game released before 1999” on it. After Danganronpa is added to it, of course.
#490 by kiru
2018-08-27 at 08:45
If we don't want western adventure games, we need to not allow stuff where you "click" too much to get your text. Because, honestly, what we look at as VNs nowadays is just way too different from that anyway.

The older games in the 90ties used a lot of this "click a lot" stuff because back then you needed to stretch playtime. Sure, some did a little more, but something like Desire for example? No. The only reason you need click talk->character 10 times in a row to get the whole dialogue is to make it take more time. Nowadays the writers pad with narration, if "needed". (I'd argue it's never needed, but..)
And that's fine. Times change. Rules now are for NEW GAMES. Not for OLD GAMES. There's a bit of a difference there. What once was a VN may no longer be one if made today, because a lot changed, but isn't that fine? It's not like we are defining what a VN is. We look at the industry, what gets released. And that simply doesn't include the old school point and click anymore.Last modified on 2018-08-27 at 08:48
#491 by beliar
2018-08-27 at 18:34
Okay, I spent a bit more time watching the Let's Play of Tokyo Dark link. Didn't watch too much, as, funny thing, I actually own the game and didn't want to spoil myself too much.

The prologue, which is more or less a tutorial, seems to be more interactive, with VN segments pretty short and constantly interrupted by interactivity, like walking or examining objects. The second chapter, which is a flashback, appears to be more linear, with less interactivity and longer VN sequences. I have no idea how the game progresses further, i.e. if it develops more or less interactivity along the line.

On one hand, I'm not particularly opposed to reinstating the game to the db, on the other one - the game has never been marketed as a visual novel. Sure, some uninformed people on Steam call it a VN, but the developers have never used the term and called it an adventure game instead. Additionally, we have already removed some extremely similar and even more text heavy games from the DB, like link, which only illustrates the point that re-adding TD would open the undesirable door to "but a similar game is already here - why cannot I add game X then?". And lo and behold, one of these days someone will add "The Longest Journey" to the DB.

In other words, I'm uncomfortable in making this decision by my lonesome and will not re-add the game without the consensus from at least a few other active mods, like Decay or Minah.
#492 by minah
2018-08-27 at 21:48
I'll take a look at it when I have a chance. I don't think marketing is necessarily a factor against it, though, any more than a game being described as a VN by the developer means it should be considered a VN by our criteria.
#493 by leery
2018-09-02 at 10:28
I would presume that
Sotsugyou ~Graduation~
Sotsugyou 2 ~Neo Generation~

are primarily simulation games and not games of the readable sort. They were both developed by Headroom whose game Tanjou ~Debut~ was removed on page 18 for the same reason.

I have not played either game.

The other Sotsugyou offshoots are from different developers and probably are fine.

EDIT: I played Sotsugyou 2 ~Neo Generation~ for the PlayStation for fifteen minutes or so and did not find a line of text. The little flavour the game had was done via voiceovers, and even those were repetitive.

EDIT 2: Sotsugyou 3 ~Wedding Bell~ (PlayStation) looks fine to me. Raising sim but plenty of text.

EDIT 3: Kekkon Marriage is a simulation but has a good amount of text too. Maybe a bit borderline though. I didn't really figure out how to play it. Or trigger desirable events.

From this I presume that the games released in 1995 or later are probably OK. If someone wants to verify, go ahead...Last modified on 2018-09-02 at 13:41
#494 by lsssk21331
2018-09-14 at 11:47
just a quick question again if this kind of game can be added here: Link.
#495 by sakurakoi
2018-09-14 at 13:12
^That entirely depends on whether it has narration and if reading time is bigger than gaming time.
#496 by kiru
2018-09-14 at 15:54
Feels like the dev doesn't consider it one. Mouse only controls would be hella bad for an actual VN as well.
#497 by leery
2018-09-15 at 08:11
Er, アドベンチャーゲーム *is* a visual novel.

Also, mouse only controls were ridiculously common until sanity won in the year 2001 or so...
#498 by lsssk21331
2018-09-15 at 11:21
it has a narration, then some parts you need to talk to characters, clicking an arrow which will then transfer you to another location and also like getting an item, then giving it to character which lead to some scene (like some VN does). as i only tried the trial version and don't know yet if the reading time is much bigger. anyway thanks
#499 by kiru
2018-09-15 at 11:36
@497: Not quite. It's way too complex to discuss here though, but it's basically similar to how adventure is used here as well. It does include VNs, but the way it's written it sounds like it's a GAME you progress in and not a NOVEL you read. Which is the important thing from the sentence I quoted.


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