Game inclusion in the DB

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#501 by seraphic
2018-10-06 at 00:33
I'd be incredibly pained to see it go, based on the amount of time I've put into the page, but now that I think about it I don't think 1bitHeart or its sequel really fulfill the VN criteria.
#502 by beliar
2018-10-06 at 11:31
Ok, so:
I cannot find quality videos of Sotsugyou ~Graduation~, but it's most likely not a VN courtesy of a few short clips I found online and due to the fact its sequel is definitely not a VN.
The aforementioned sequel Sotsugyou 2 ~Neo Generation~ has a good playthrough on Youtube link and it certainly doesn't belong here.
He Beat Her. is hard to classify, but I do not believe it belongs here. Youtube video: link
Moreover, You Left Me. is also more of a point and click game than any visual NOVEL. At least, reading is not the main point of the game. Youtube video: link
If no one strenuously objects, those games will be removed soon.
#503 by warfoki
2018-10-06 at 11:50
I'd vote against removing He Beat Her. and You Left Me.. They have narration (second person narration is still narration), their stories are entirely told through the text with the aid of the visuals (and not the other way around) and the gameplay elements are complementary at best. Yes, they are a bit different from "pure" VNs, but I don't think they are so different as to not to be included.

On the other hand Sotsugyou ~Graduation~ and Sotsugyou 2 ~Neo Generation~ clearly don't belong here.Last modified on 2018-10-06 at 11:52
#504 by seniorblitz
2018-10-06 at 12:50
I'm against removing 1bitHeart or it's sequel, the game has barely any puzzles and even the map sections are mainly used as a way to quickly reach new events, so the player still spends most of their time reading the story or befriending the characters on a "dating" mini-game with consistent dialog, the gameplay X Reading ratio isn't that borderline.Last modified on 2018-10-06 at 12:51
#505 by eacil
2018-10-06 at 15:18
Warfoki, if only you were here when I asked for the undeletion of Tokyo Dark...
#506 by seraphic
2018-10-07 at 04:31
My reasoning on 1bitHeart is that it's very light on narration that isn't dialogue...but I'd be happy enough seeing it stay that I'm not going to make too much more of an argument about its noninclusion.
#507 by savagetiger
2019-01-21 at 05:40
I don't think Tour Party: Sotsugyou Ryokou ni Ikou really belongs.
It's mainly a board game type thing. There isn't any narration and every little vn encounter is super random and short.Last modified on 2019-01-22 at 22:44
#508 by lunaterra
2019-01-22 at 22:11
Replica definitely has a lot of text, and it's described as an "interactive novel game", but I don't think it can be called a visual novel. See video here: link
#509 by 707
2019-01-23 at 07:29
CITY no.109 Arisu-hen VN? doesnt look like one and it's described as "full color motion manga" in the blog post. other games by same maker dont look like vns too link
#510 by eacil
2019-01-23 at 07:35
Beliar decided to accept Motion Comics: link. For real.
#511 by konstantin357
2019-01-27 at 19:37
Ok, my opinion will not be most popular here but still consider it please.
First a little story. There is online store in Ukraine www.rozetka.com.ua, name means [electric] socket. In early days they mostly sold electronics and PC parts, so mostly stuff you plug into socket. Then they became pretty much The Online Store of Ukraine and now sell almost everything: clothes, jewelry, hunting equipment, tableware... Yes, stuff no one in sane mind plugs into socket. Store name partially lost sense, but this shift let them grow. And they really grown, a lot.
Maybe VNDB too should consider including games that not exactly VNs but contain some distinct VN elements, and grow this way? Not all gamers are putting much thought into genre definitions. It happened to me when I was looking for Demon Master Chris here and have not fond it to my surprise. Is it VN is still debatable but it is not the point, point is that moment VNDB excluded me as user. I came to place where I believed I will find something and I did not. And it does not look like I am alone in this situation. And educating your users hard way by excluding them is not way to grow.
So back to the point. There are games that are clearly not VNs in core but still contain definite VN parts. Like Hyperdimension Neptunia series. JRPG to the core, but reading VN-style is big part of game.
Maybe including games like this is way to grow? Games that are in some parts have nothing to do with VNs and in some clearly took inspiration from them. With disclaimer "How much this game is VN on scale from 0.0 to 3.0" it can work and help site and its users in many ways.
PS Sorry if my english is bad, I tried but it is not my native.
#512 by kominara
2019-01-27 at 19:54
i don't see why the legend of zelda shouldn't be included on VNDB. the opening crawl is clearly NVL-style text and there's a significant amount of required text throughout the game, plus we're excluding all the people that would come here specifically to look for it

actually, i searched for pong the other day, and it didn't come up either. someone should really get on that one; there's obviously demand for it to be included
#513 by wakaranai
2019-01-27 at 21:57
Maybe VNDB too should consider including games that not exactly VNs
how about no?

I came to place where I believed I will find something and I did not.
sooo, instead of adjusting your expectations you think it's more appropriate for VNDB to adjust our standards. nah, i think we're fine.

> legend of zelda
gr8 b8 m8
#514 by beliar
2019-01-27 at 22:16
Nah man, fuck Zelda. It's the fact that Magnavox Odyssey games are not included here that makes me rage. After all, two dots on the screen do constitute visuals, and the console was very novel for its time, hence "visual novel".

In all seriousness, imagine that there is an exclusive hunter club that gathers once in a while to hunt boars. A new guy comes and says: "Guys, I want to join you". He is asked if he's a hunter, and he answers: "Nah, I hate hunting and I'm a vegetarian, but I bake a mean avocado cake. I noticed that you guys don't bake avocado cakes, so I gather that it would do you good to expand your activities"...

Sometimes exclusivity is just what the doctor ordered. We do not artificially grow by taking in non-visual novels - we are already expanding, as the visual novel market grows each year and we are already struggling to uphold the consistency of our database. Why would we include other niches, which would make even more of a mess of our internal catalogues and would make it harder for dedicated VN fans to search for what they want.

@eacil: Now now, don't put words into my mouth. I only weighed on one particular instance that was brought to my attention by lsssk21331. That particular game pretty much played like any other VN, so I didn't object to it (and despite that, the game has still not been included here). I couldn't find a trial or a pirated copy for CITY no.109 Arisu-hen, so I cannot say if it actually belongs here.Last modified on 2019-01-27 at 22:16
#515 by kuronyan
2019-01-30 at 11:44
here is some short gameplay though it is from the other series of the game:
link
#516 by kominara
2019-04-05 at 02:27
inb4 >necroing

I recently added Dodomeiro Clover to the database, and since a grand total of nobody is going to ever see it, I figured I'd bring it up here.

The main issue is all of the graphics are default RPG Maker assets. Otherwise, it's practically identical to many titles currently on the database. It doesn't have any form of gameplay other than advancing text, and there's a (relatively) significant amount of text. Since it's a very different title than anything else on the database, I figured I should call attention to it, in case anyone objects to its inclusion.

For reference, you can find a complete video of the game here: linkLast modified on 2019-04-05 at 02:27
#517 by beliar
2019-04-06 at 10:55
I see nothing objectionable regarding the game. It doesn't have any gameplay, and even if it's composed entirely of dialogues, that doesn't preclude it from being a VN. The short length is also not a problem, as there are other games in the DB that are 3 minutes long.
#518 by ginseigou
2019-05-08 at 10:13
I think 80 Days doesn't belong here based on gameplay link and the fact that the creators themselves don't mark it as a vn. Its presence was left undecided a long time ago.Last modified on 2019-05-08 at 11:13
#519 by butterflygrrl
2019-05-08 at 13:18
80 days is definitely interactive fiction and more about reading than anything else, but also definitely not a standard VN or even thinking about VNs in terms of presentation/development.
#520 by lunaterra
2019-05-08 at 18:05
I asked about it when it was first added (not by me) and was told that it was okay for the DB.Last modified on 2019-05-08 at 18:06
#521 by ginseigou
2019-05-09 at 01:51
That's strange, 80 Days looks less like a vn than Gyakuten Saiban which addition was a highly debatable decision.
Clearly, CYOA books were inspiration for it and the main point of the game is a non-linear story unlike in vns.
80 Days as interactive fiction is similar to Telltale games where you constantly have to choose your hero's dialogs and reading (subtitles).Last modified on 2019-05-09 at 06:21
#522 by lunaterra
2019-05-09 at 18:40
Not gonna lie, I'm kind of baffled that you'd say that 80 Days is LESS of a VN than Ace Attorney, given that 80 Days has far more reading and less gameplay (speaking as someone who's played both).

Calling Telltale games interactive fiction makes as much sense as calling them visual novels. They're absolutely, 100% adventure games. The key points of both IF and VNs are that the PRIMARY way of experiencing the game (not just the story, the entire game) is via reading. The primary ways of experiencing Telltale games are watching cutscenes (which MAY have subtitles, but you can turn them off) and 3D exploration/point-and-click gameplay.

80 Days is undoubtedly interactive fiction, but so are all non-kinetic visual novels--I consider VNs to be a subgenre of IF rather than a totally separate genre. (You can even make a decent argument for kinetic novels: if a linear Twine story is "interactive fiction", why can't a kinetic novel be IF too? The only mechanical difference between them is that Twine stories make you click on a specific part of the screen to move forward rather than allowing you to click anywhere within the window.)

Fun fact: IFDB actually has a handful of VNs in its database (not an exhaustive list).

Aviary Attorney link
Doki Doki Literature Club! link
Ladykiller in a Bind link
Save The Date link
We Know the Devil link

(Side note: I highly agree with the DDLC reviewer's recommendation of Creatures Such as We. I've been replaying it lately and it's just as good as the first time.)

Anyway, I have no strong feelings about whether or not 80 Days is a visual novel (if it seems like I do, it's only because I'll take basically any opportunity to shill it--it really is extremely well-written). But using VNDB's own rules, I don't think there's any reason why it shouldn't be on the DB.

> The game consistently uses the novel narrative for telling its story. Examples include describing visuals, events, character actions or thoughts.
This point is ESSENTIAL - dialogues, no matter how extensive, are a characteristic of such game genres as RPGs, adventure games, dating simulations, etc., NOT of visual novels.

There's loads of narration as it's defined here. You could even say that the narration outweighs the dialogue by quite a bit.

> The story is told employing one of the known Visual Novel presentation methods such as ADV, NVL and their variations, consistently and for a significant length - at least 50% of the game should be made of pure, VN-style reading.

The text is in NVL format and the reading:gameplay ratio is about 70:30. The visuals are unconventional (showing the form of transportation you're using and the location you're in), but we have other games which don't make use of "traditional" visuals.

From my point of view, if we want to exclude 80 Days, the rules regarding hybrids will need to be changed in some way.Last modified on 2019-05-09 at 18:43
#523 by butterflygrrl
2019-05-09 at 21:19
I don't care if it's here or not but I think the rules are confusing and frustrating. it is stupid that, say, princess maker 4 is in the database and Long Live The Queen got kicked out. it is stupid that some games which are 100% read-and-make-choices are not included because they don't "look like" visual novels, while 'Emily Is Away' or 'Digital A Love Story' gets listed despite having nothing to do with visual novel presentation at all. I'm not saying they should be kicked out either!

I don't think 80 Days is using one of the known visual novel presentation methods. It does not look like NVL, unless you're saying any large text box of any sort is NVL, and then the 'known presentations' method becomes utterly meaningless because anything would qualify.

Some other games which currently are not on VNDB:
The Ghost Of You: link It actually does have graphics, but they're not presented in a traditional VN style.
Vlad The Impaler: link visuals more similar to 80 days? it's clearly graphics and text, but is it a visual novel?

The rules insist that narration is "ESSENTIAL" - but we include VNs with no narration at all.

when I said 80 days is interactive fiction, I do not mean that to disqualify it. all VNs are interactive fiction. interactive fiction is a supercategory of all story-based games where the user choices change the story, IMO. which ironically means kinetic novels are NOT interactive fiction. but that just shows the problem with categories.

i have the feeling the "known presentations" thing is basically entirely to keep out telltale games and interactive movies.Last modified on 2019-05-09 at 21:21
#524 by lunaterra
2019-05-09 at 22:14
> The rules insist that narration is "ESSENTIAL" - but we include VNs with no narration at all.

I was quoting the rules on VN/game hybrids. The rules on pure VNs don't mention narration at all (which I agree with FWIW; excluding something like Cinders, whose only gameplay is making standard choices, just because it has no narration is just silly).

While The Ghost of You technically has graphics, they're incidental. You could remove them and it'd be basically the same experience. I don't think 80 Days is the same.

Vlad the Impaler (why is spellcheck saying that "impaler" isn't a word?) is more blurry, but the presentation reminds me a bit of the Sorcery series ( link ), which I personally wouldn't consider a VN.
#525 by ginseigou
2019-05-10 at 00:16
Not gonna lie, I'm kind of baffled that you'd say that 80 Days is LESS of a VN than Ace Attorney, given that 80 Days has far more reading and less gameplay (speaking as someone who's played both).
That's because in Ace Attorney you don't have to make choices almost every 10 seconds unlike in 80 days. Ace Attorney has a linear story and its gameplay resembles old point-and-click novels like YU-NO.Last modified on 2019-05-10 at 01:26

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