Game inclusion in the DB

Posted in

#576 by kiru
2019-11-11 at 12:20
< report >@573: Adventure is the main genre where the sub genres branch off. Visual Novels are one of those. Just like point and click adventures and others. Japan tends to call them "renai adventure" or similar stuff, but every creator loves to make up some kind of special genre for their game there anyway. Sanoba Witch for example: おなやみ解決! 魔女っ子ADV (Trouble solving! Magical girl Adventure)
That doesn't mean that ALL adventures are VNs, but all VNs are also an adventure game. That's why it's not wrong to call a VN an "adventure". But it'd be wrong to call something a VN just because it's part of the adventure genre.

Think of it like this. A potentially existing DB for jrpg style games would not want crpgs in it either. Both are rpgs, but still very different styles of games. All jrpgs are rpgs, but not all rpgs are jrpgs.Last modified on 2019-11-11 at 12:25
#577 by adamstan
2019-11-11 at 12:45
< report >
Adventure is the main genre where the sub genres branch off. Visual Novels are one of those.

But it'd be wrong to call something a VN just because it's part of the adventure genre.

A potentially existing DB for jrpg style games would not want crpgs in it either.

@576 - yes, I totally agree. I guess I just wanted to counter the opinions that 90's proto-VN games somehow aren't VN-enough to belong on VNDB. And I feel like those opinions stem from treating the "novel" part of "Visual Novel" moniker too literally.

In other words - for me titles such as Sanoba Witch, Mashiroiro Symphony, Clannad - but also YU-NO, Sakura no Kisetsu and other similar JADV games all belong to the same subgenre of adventure games that we tend to call "Visual Novels", and are different enough from Western-style adventure games (like Broken Sword series or King's Quest series etc).Last modified on 2019-11-11 at 12:52
#578 by palas
2019-11-11 at 13:43
< report >@575 of course not, but there's no one out there saying they're not games
#579 by usagi
2020-01-08 at 15:09
< report >@543
I have played Knee Deep for about 50 minutes in order to form an opinion, and I really can find nothing that would disqualify it as a visual novel.

It's pretty much a pure visual novel, albeit one made in a full 3D environment, which we actually have a tag for (Realtime 3D). It's not a "walkaround adventure game", because you never control characters directly, and they are only ever shown walking as a method of scene transition.

Is it walking even among disqualifying criterias? In Dangan Ronpa Kibou no Gakuen to Zetsubou no Koukousei you can walk freely, for example.

It has a pretty low amount of narration, but narration is not even a requirement for pure VNs like this.

So, yeah, definitely not removing it.
If Knee Deep allowed - why Wolf Among Us link is not? I don't see principal differences between them.Last modified on 2020-01-08 at 15:13
#580 by beliar
2020-01-08 at 18:16
< report >
s it walking even among disqualifying criterias?
Not really, no. There are more games than Danganronpa in the db that feature movement in a 3D environment. But games that use walking for anything else but scene transitions should be treated as hybrids. In other words we have to look at the existence of narration, gameplay/story ratio and the length of story sequences in order to establish if we will accept the inclusion or not.

Not to mention, it's easy for games where you control your own character's motions to tinker with story-gameplay integrations, and arguably the games that integrate gameplay into the story are less visual novels than those that treat the two separately.

If Knee Deep allowed - why Wolf Among Us link is not?
I'm baffled why you are comparing the two. It's like comparing shovels with apples. Knee Deep is is fully a visual novel, albeit made in an engine where the 3D environment is a visual gimmick, not a gameplay feature. The Wolf Among Us (and yes, I have played the game) is a cinematic adventure game strongly leaning towards an interactive movie. It's still primarily an adventure game, and even if the adventure elements are rudimentary, you are still freely moving in a full 3D world and performing certain actions to advance and watching lengthy cutscenes where your only interaction with the game are QTEs. And the dialogues that you can control are, well dialogues - they have no narration.

So. yeah. You could make a more compelling case to me that "The Longest Journey" is a visual novel. I would flounder for a bit before coming up with arguments why it's not :-P
#581 by usagi
2020-01-08 at 19:53
< report >
Knee Deep is is fully a visual novel, albeit made in an engine where the 3D environment is a visual gimmick, not a gameplay feature. The Wolf Among Us (and yes, I have played the game) is a cinematic adventure game strongly leaning towards an interactive movie. It's still primarily an adventure game, and even if the adventure elements are rudimentary, you are still freely moving in a full 3D world and performing certain actions to advance and watching lengthy cutscenes where your only interaction with the game are QTEs.
Vn is subgenre of adventure game, is it not? Therefore your claiming that Wolf Among Us is an adventure game sounds to me as admitting that it's a vn as well 0_0 If you wanted to point out that this game is "interactive adventure" aka "point'n'click" subgenre however - I can object that's definitely not the case. Like you said - it's closer to interactive movies vns such as School Days and as far from games such as Kono Yo no Hate de Koi o Utau Shoujo YU-NO as it can get.
That's said, I also can argue that you are "freely moving in a full 3D world". It's not freely and it's not full. Basically all Telltales games movement system is just glorified "Map Movement" transitions between scenes. You are just moving to next cut-scene trigger and maybe you are given some rudimentary items functionality occasionaly. It's on par with Danganronpa gameplay if not worse - you are trapped in a extremelly small 3D-space with very limited set of cut-scenes entry points - and that's it. All the game's meat lies within those cut-scenes and dialogues there. In other words - the so called "free full 3D world" there - is just the same gimmick as Knee Deep's "3D world" or Danganronpa's" 3D world. As I said before - I don't see any principal difference.Last modified on 2020-01-08 at 19:57
#582 by warfoki
2020-01-08 at 19:59
< report >
Vn is subgenre of adventure game, is it not? Therefore your claiming that Wolf Among Us is an adventure game sounds to me as admitting that it's a vn as well

How? VN started out as subgenre of adventure games, not the other way around. Like, you know the entire "every bug is an insect, but not every insect is a bug"?
#583 by beliar
2020-01-08 at 20:06
< report >
Vn is subgenre of adventure game, is it not? Therefore your claiming that Wolf Among Us is an adventure game sounds to me as admitting that it's a vn as well
All my friends are Americans. Donald Trump is American. Therefore Donald Trump is my friend... :-P
#584 by usagi
2020-01-08 at 20:10
< report >
How? VN started out as subgenre of adventure games, not the other way around. Like, you know the entire "every bug is an insect, but not every insect is a bug"?
Fair. Still, in argument about "not being a bug" - admitting that this species is definitely an insect is not going to make the point.Last modified on 2020-01-08 at 20:10
#585 by beliar
2020-01-08 at 20:23
< report >
the so called "free full 3D world" there - is just the same gimmick as Knee Deep's "3D world" or Danganronpa's" 3D world.
Moreover, while it can be argued that TWAU has some relatively minor similarities with Danganronpa, it has zero similarities with Knee Deep. In Knee Deep the 3D world is non-functional - you cannot interact with it in any shape or form. It's just a graphical representation, not that different from all those pre-rendered games on Patreon.

The only difference between something like say Kindread: The Redburns and Knee Deep is that the former spends all the processing power in advance, where the pre-rendered CGs are generated, after which they are inserted into the game. The latter takes advantage of the game engine and renders everything in real time. There is basically no difference, apart from how much processing power the engine devotes to portray the graphics.

On the other hand, in TWAU you interact with the world - it's more than just a rendered painting. Which immediately means it's not a pure visual novel. Going by that logic, we check if it can pass as a hybrid instead, and it doesn't - there is no consistent narration. And all the cutscenes do not count as Vn segments either, as they play like movies - automatically. You cannot read them at your own leisure - you watch them. To sum up, TWAU has three distinct parts: gameplay, movies and dialogues. And,neither of those parts qualifies as a visual novel.
#586 by ninigi
2020-01-12 at 19:21
< report >link

This is weird. They released a Fan Disk for Crime Opera: The Butterfly Effect, but unlike most FDs listed here this one deals with the development history of the main game AKA the "Making of" or "Behind the scenes" sort of DLC. Should we include this here?Last modified on 2020-01-12 at 19:26
#587 by mutsuki
2020-01-12 at 20:31
< report >#586, if there's no VN portion to it I don't see why it should be included.
#588 by beliar
2020-01-12 at 20:41
< report >Indeed, if there is no VN aspect to this "making of" fandisc, there is no basis to include it here. As it's a commercial product, I cannot just download it to check if there is something that fits or not. If someone does have it, they should share what they know about it.
#589 by eacil
2020-01-12 at 22:53
< report >It looks like a VN (phew, I almost deleted it): link.
We're releasing a special "Making Of" docu-VISUAL NOVEL fandisk

If it is not, I suggest to not delete the page but use it for the sequel Crime Opera II: The Floodgate Effect.
#590 by mcmullengage
2020-02-08 at 05:43
< report >Are the games made by Shinjita Baka ga Ore Datta VNs? They just look like RPGs to me. Mahou Shoujo is the only one that looks like a VN
#591 by kiru
2020-02-08 at 10:26
< report >As far as I know, you do play them because of the story/characters and whatnot, not the gameplay. But that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of gameplay. There is. And you gotta get past that.

As for Mahou Shoujo, the only one I played, I'd not add it to vndb. But it's here for a long time now, so it's fine. There's much more questionable around. (i.e. many Eushully games) It shouldn't be taken as an example for what to add though. Otherwise we can add all of those Super Robot Wars games and whatnot as well. In the end, Mahou shoujo isn't different. Mostly 20 minutes of reading->Battle. And while early on that still means you have more text than gameplay, that changes. At some point, having 20 characters and fighting 40 is a thing. Every map. That's when I dropped it actually.
#592 by mutsuki
2020-02-09 at 01:43
< report >Are the games being posted by u172319 VNs? The screenshots from the linked Steam pages look like simple text adventures to me.
#593 by ginseigou
2020-02-09 at 02:56
< report >@592
They don't look like vns to me, but so is 80 Days link with similar gameplay which is
Flexible interactive narrative with thousands of choices
Last modified on 2020-02-09 at 03:33
#594 by beliar
2020-02-09 at 10:56
< report >With the exception of one, all those games added by u172319 were not visual novels. Having visuals is one of the fundamental aspects to even start thinking about the interactive media in question as visual novels. If you only have text and choices but no visuals, well, that is just an interactive novel.
#595 by yorhel
2020-02-09 at 11:00
< report >
With the exception of one
You left two, though. (filters are great :)
#596 by beliar
2020-02-09 at 11:08
< report >Darn, he created a dupe of one of the games and I didn't notice that...
#597 by usagi
2020-03-30 at 12:30
< report >link
Is this can be considered as hybrid VN game, I wonder? It consists of reading the text 99% of game's time as far as I can tell - i.e. interactive text adventure with choices, CGs and RPG-like stat and skills raising system. Well, even if it won't - I applaud the game for its originality. Simulator of executioner is really something new 0_0Last modified on 2020-03-30 at 12:33
#598 by naiohoras
2020-03-30 at 12:45
< report >judging by this screenshot link I think we can count it as one. you can tag it with Epistolary Storytelling, RPG and such. don't know though, have you played the game yet? if the game has more narration like that then we can include it.
#599 by usagi
2020-03-30 at 14:54
< report >
have you played the game yet?
I am going to play soon )
#600 by usagi
2020-03-31 at 17:22
< report >The Executioner
Done. The game is definitely a visual novel - albeit closer to "choose your own adventure" books like The Ballad Singer rather than classic Japanese galge. Still it's pure long-winded text narration 99% of the time with rare occasional mini pics here and there. Despite what its own creators and game journalists labels it with (i.e. text RPG) - in terms of gameplay it's really similar to raising simulation genre like Long Live The Queen but with much more focus on "reading the book" rather then "playing the game" aspect.Last modified on 2020-03-31 at 17:23