Game inclusion in the DB

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#51 by pabloc
2016-02-07 at 09:31
So, the question is; what disqualifies it? The lack of NVL/ADV presentation?
I'd say it's exactly this. PT simply doesn't use VN-like presentation, like many other story-heavy RPG games. "Obvious VNs" that lack those should be marked as exceptions... or kicked out - are they really that obvious when they don't use the typical VN presentation?
#52 by beliar
2016-02-07 at 10:35
Which games in our DB are non-VNs but in for relations reasons?
We were talking about 'Digital: A Love Story' there. Someone proposed to remove it, because it's supposedly not a VN. I haven't played in and don't know how non-VN it is, but it would be kinda strange to kick out the first game in a long running series.

Re: Planescape Tournament
I think that it differentiates from a VN by your ability to freely move your character. In a VN you usually do not directly control the protagonist in real time, and if there is some movement, it's usually a small part of the VN.Last modified on 2016-02-07 at 10:35
#53 by kilicool64
2016-02-07 at 11:16
@52 By the same logic, we'd have to include the original Corpse Party as well, seeing how it's the first entry in a series whose later entries are VNs.
#54 by beliar
2016-02-07 at 11:18
Point taken. But as I said, I'm not qualified to judge,as I haven't played it. If other mods decide to remove it, so be it.
#55 by palas
2016-02-07 at 13:02
Oh boy
#56 by palas
2016-02-07 at 13:08
As for LLtQ, I get it that it's a raising Sim. But it feels off to call it so due to how it doesn't work as a self-sustainable raising Sim. I mean, you do raise stats, but it's quite impossible to predict the outcome of your efforts. Thus, you kinda never raise stats for the sake of doing so. I mean, I don't know really. It's an awkward raising Sim if you call it that. I'd be real sad to see it gone anyway.
#57 by palas
2016-02-07 at 13:15
Oh and about Digital, well, go ahead and delete Emily is Away too if you're going going o delete it. A problem is that nothing good comes out of deleting these while they DO offer interesting ways for a VN to develop in the near future (Analogue, for example, uses its interface as both a storytelling device and an in-game mechanic much like Digital, and I don't see anyone complaining. Of course you can just delete Analogue too and protect poor Japanese VN formats as if they were dodoes). I kinda see them as bona fide VNs. They're just not... normal, I suppose.Last modified on 2016-02-07 at 13:19
#58 by takata
2016-02-07 at 13:18
Can you use the term "narration" instead of "novel narrative" in d2#1.2? I can't find the term "novel narrative" used anywhere, so it's confusing when you use a seemingly non-existant term.Last modified on 2016-02-07 at 13:20
#59 by pabloc
2016-02-07 at 14:25
As for LLtQ, I get it that it's a raising Sim. But it feels off to call it so due to how it doesn't work as a self-sustainable raising Sim. I mean, you do raise stats, but it's quite impossible to predict the outcome of your efforts. Thus, you kinda never raise stats for the sake of doing so. I mean, I don't know really. It's an awkward raising Sim if you call it that. I'd be real sad to see it gone anyway.
The fact that something kinda fails at utilizing raising sim mechanics properly doesn't mean we should classify it as something else (where it will fail even more tremendously...).
And I'm real sad that we don't list titles like Asakura P! or Hanakanmuri Circle here, because I like those platform games. So what? :P
go ahead and delete Emily is Away too
I'm not familiar with Emily is Away, but it sure doesn't look like a VN. More like some sort of text adventure game thingy.
#60 by palas
2016-02-07 at 14:35
It doesn't *fail* as a raising Sim because it isn't what it tries to be. It's really all about Elodie's story and family and journey as a princess. Don't be so quick to judge.

And I'm real sad that we don't list titles like Asakura P! or Hanakanmuri Circle here, because I like those platform games. So what? :P

No, no you're not.

If you're not familiar with Emily is Away, get familiar with Emily is Away. It's free and will take less than an hour to complete.
#61 by soulless-one
2016-02-07 at 14:44
Re: Planescape Tournament
I think that it differentiates from a VN by your ability to freely move your character.
This is a characteristic of Koisuru Oukoku too, to roughly the same extent.

(By the way, it's Torment, not Tournament.)Last modified on 2016-02-07 at 15:15
#62 by beliar
2016-02-07 at 15:25
One step forward, two steps back. Sugoi.
Anyway, I have just quickly checked Digital: A Love Story and Emily is Away. Digital simulates a fictional Bulletin Board, where you exchange messages with other people. One can say that the action of replying to the messages can be taken as a different choice system. Thus, if you squint very hard and have had a few bears Digital can pass the first requirement. The question is, do we want to squint so hard.
Emily is both similar and different. It simulates a chat program and the story is told entirely as online dialogue between two persons. If anything, it's even more of a VN than Digital. For every sentence written by Emily, you can choose one of the three possible answers. So, it's basically a dialogue only VN with a 'different' choice system. I would like some more opinions, but my opinion is to err on the side of leaving more games in, rather than removing too many.

I want to remind you, that in about four hours I'll remove Long Live The Queen, unless someone provides a compelling argument why I shouldn't do this.

P.S. Planescape Tournament... Now that's an epic fail on my part...Last modified on 2016-02-07 at 15:26
#63 by warfoki
2016-02-07 at 15:34
But bears are protected... and hairy... and scary... wouldn't chickens suffice? :P

Opinion wise: a pure dialogue VN can stay as long as it doesn't have any gameplay mechanics.
#64 by pabloc
2016-02-07 at 15:46
It's really all about Elodie's story and family and journey as a princess.
No, it's all about finding various silly, random ways to get the princess killed. :P
But jokes aside, LLtQ relies on raising sim mechanics to describe Elodie's journey as a princess. It isn't "trying" to be a raising sim, it "is" a raising sim.
No, no you're not.
Yes, I am.
If you're not familiar with Emily is Away, get familiar with Emily is Away. It's free and will take less than an hour to complete.
It fails to catch my interest, so I'll pass.
This is a characteristic of Koisuru Oukoku too, to roughly the same extent.
Koisuru Oukoku is more on the dating sim side. It uses typical VN presentation with narration when you are seeing heroines' events and it has more story than a typical sim, but it's still VERY borderline at best.
I would like some more opinions, but my opinion is to err on the side of leaving more games in, rather than removing too many.
I agree with this, especially for titles that don't have ANY gameplay (other than typical VN stuff). That was the point of separating the criteria in the first place.
#65 by usagi
2016-02-07 at 16:36
Problem is that raising sims and dating sim are similar, adjacent to vn genres - therefore it is expected to have lots of narration even in pure, classical samples. While raising sims are not so much liable to it - dating sims are. I mean it is difficult to find any pure dating sims without narration at all - almost always all key events, dates, endings are made with narration usage. It is normal and expected of that genre. The same often can be true for raising sims as well - many scenes there can be made in vn style (and they are made in vn style almost always since it is the most simple way for that task). In other words it is quite difficult to find any raisng/dating sim without vn style presentation or even narration.

My point is that should we consider all or almost all dating/raising sims as hybrid games? Should we include one and exclude other quite similar game from one creator based on technical nitpicking? Imo, is is sign that something is wrong in genre definitions - and narration/vn style presentation are typical features of not only vns but some other genres as well - and in that case these features does not define them as hybrids.

Thus, considering all above Magical Diary: Horse Hall is pure raising sim as well as Long Live The Queen - and they both should be purged. Unless we would use some other criterias for such similar to vn genres (gameplay ratio?) or allow all such genres in database (actually I like that idea and already proposed it long time ago but now it is another matter altogether).

P.S.: Bloody Bride Imadoki no Vampire is pure datesim too. Tokimeki Memorial series, Sakura Taisen series should be deleted as well. They are all datesims or (t)rpg/datesims by current rules (even if not considering what I said above).

P.P.S.: hm.. maybe I was wrong though - it seems there are quite a few datesims without narration (except maybe at start/ending).Last modified on 2016-02-07 at 17:13
#66 by ginseigou
2016-02-07 at 17:02
Well, if they stay I propose to add King of Dragon Pass as a hybrid example of City Building Game and RPG with Floating Textbox representationLast modified on 2016-02-07 at 17:07
#67 by beliar
2016-02-07 at 17:14
Unless we would use some other criterias for such similar to vn genres (gameplay ratio?)
Gameplay ratio is exactly the criterion on which I judged LLtQ and Magical Diary. LLtQ appears to primarily be a simulation game, which advances its 'plot' with short VN scenes. Magical Diary appears to be a hybrid game where VN segments are more numerous than gameplay segments. Both games use narration.
However, LLTQ plays like this: 30 seconds of VN, than 1 min of raising stats, then 30 secs of VN and so on. The segments switch very quickly thus breaking the clause that VN portions have to be uninterrupted for a certain amount of time.
In Magical Diary you choose what stats to raise at the beginning of each week, but then you read through the week in an uninterrupted VN format (with some choices). So, MD's simulation aspect doesn't interrupt the VN segments nearly as much as in LLTQ.
After playing through the demos I see that as a basis for removing one and keeping the other. I dunno, maybe after the demo cutoff point the games change in some way, but I saw no reason to believe that.

P.S. I have played "Imadoki no Vampire" a long ass fucking time ago and don't remember it very well, but while it is mostly made up of dialogue, the story/gameplay ratio is strongly skewed towards story. You can read for half an hour without any gameplay and the main interactive element is still choices. There is some walking around and even fighting, but it's barely 5-10% of the game.

P.P.S. Ginseigou, I'm starting to believe you are just trolling us now.
#68 by ginseigou
2016-02-07 at 17:26
No, I'm not, I think exceptions in the rules for inclusion are quite dubious.

I played it a long time ago, but it's my impression that this Cobra Mission: Panic in Cobra City is not a vn.
#69 by usagi
2016-02-07 at 17:26
but while it is mostly made up of dialogue,

Since it is hybrid game (datesim/rpg) - second set of rules should apply. Therefore "dialogues, no matter how extensive, are a characteristic of such game genres as RPGs, adventure games, dating simulations, etc., NOT of visual novels." and "The game consistently uses the novel narrative for telling its story" - which isn't the case. Also dating sims allows lots of reading - otherwise it is impossible to become acquainted with girls to enough degree to make right choice.Last modified on 2016-02-07 at 17:33
#70 by palas
2016-02-07 at 19:38
I get what you mean. Pabloc, but I can't get my mind around the fact that its system doesn't work for itself except when it comes to gathering outfits.
#71 by beliar
2016-02-07 at 22:44
I have deleted Long Live the Queen. It might be a controversial decision, but the game is definitely not a VN, but a simulation game. It's the least fitting game to be here out of all mentioned in this thread.

P.S. Are we supposed to also delete the characters once the VN has been removed?
#72 by jazz957
2016-02-07 at 22:50
Well at least it stays on my list. :P
#73 by warfoki
2016-02-07 at 22:55
I suppose my last note got ignored, so I put Gadget Trial here again. It's not a VN by any stretch of the imagination. If we still keep it for some reason, at least add it to the list of exceptions.
#74 by beliar
2016-02-07 at 23:00
I remember you mentioning GT, it's just I have never played it. There is no way to quickly check the game like I did with others. Maybe I'll try to watch a Youtube LP later. If other mods have played it, maybe they can make a decision.
#75 by warfoki
2016-02-07 at 23:04
Have you ever played any of the Red Alert or Command & Conquer games? The ADV dialogue (zero narration) / gamplay ratio is about the same as the live action cutscenes / gameplay ratio of those series. First few missions it's a 50/50 ratio. And then the levels get more and more complex, they become longer and longer. The last few levels are battles of attrition where you are outnumbered and outgunned severely, so it can take up to 3-5 hours to clear a level, while the ADV cutscenes (because that's what they are) stay around 2-5 minutes long. At most.

GT has been brought up earlier (years earlier, around 2010-ish) as an outlier, but it was kept in, because some of the mods then liked it and others didn't care enough to make them delete a game that they liked having on their list.

Here's a let's play video for your convenience:

link

Four and a half hours gameplay. Around 20 minutes or so ADV cutscenes and over 4 hours of gameplay.Last modified on 2016-02-07 at 23:16

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