Game inclusion in the DB

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#76 by zander1995
2016-02-08 at 02:49
I think Dating Sims, or at least ones significant to the history of the genre in relation to pure VNs (like Tokimeki Memorial), should be kept in because they are much closer to VNs than any other kind of Simulation game.

Raising Sims and the like, on the other hand, shouldn't be kept unless it works in the style of Magical Diary where it has uninterrupted visual novel segments, or feels like a Visual Novel split up by short gameplay points. Games like The Idolm@ster or LLtQ would not fit this criteria.

And about Gadget Trial. I think it falls under having long enough VN segments to be considered a hybrid VN even if individual battles take a long time to play through. Granted I'm still kind of new here so I don't know.
#77 by dk382
2016-02-08 at 03:34
No, sorry, we have a gameplay to VN ratio requirement in our inclusion criteria for a reason, and Gadget Trial fails spectacularly at meeting it.
#78 by pabloc
2016-02-08 at 14:37
Oh yeah, Gadget Trial. It so not-a-VN that I didn't even register Warfoki's comment. :P
I think Dating Sims, or at least ones significant to the history of the genre in relation to pure VNs (like Tokimeki Memorial), should be kept in because they are much closer to VNs than any other kind of Simulation game.
This, and some old adventure games. Those games were the foundation of the VN genre after all, so I'd say we can make a few exceptions for those even if they don't fit our criteria to the letter.
#79 by usagi
2016-02-08 at 18:13
Maybe it is better to just allow datesims here. It is really similar genre, it was forefather of vn genre, it is really niche and almost extinct genre, it doesn't mesh with other genres except vns almost completely - so, you can't find any database of datesims anywhere and if they will be here - it will be rather convenient.

so I'd say we can make a few exceptions for those

I don't think it is exactly "a few" - here are quite a bunch of them already. Judging by Simulation Game tag we have 248 dating sims and 227 raising sims now. I am sure that at least half of them will not fit our criteria if you check them throughly.

Hm.. btw, why Princess Maker 4 and Princess Maker 5 are here, but more older games are not? Something tells me that last games in princess maker series are pure raising sims to the same extent as older ones. I mean, what the most pure and classical raising sim series, one of founders of that genre are doing here? Or, as I mentioned before, it is implied that all classic pure raising sims (or dating sims) are actually hybrids - only because they are good games which are liked by vn fans here or because they influenced vn genre in their time? I think existing of such unwritten rules are bad and something must be done about it - either by adding new rules, or by extensive purging.Last modified on 2016-02-08 at 18:22
#80 by samael2500
2016-02-09 at 07:20
I haven't played all of the games mentioned here, but here are my opinions:
- Whenever something has ANY gameplay (RPG, stat-raising or whatever), then it can be included only based on the 2st rule set, as a hybrid, no matter how "non-intrusive" that gameplay is. Only really insignificant mini-games are allowed in the 1st rule set (think of the baseball mini-game from Little Busters as the upper limit). If that Yaoi sim has stats and stuff, then it should have narration to be included here. Dating sim with not-too-intrusive gameplay is still a dating sim.
- When something has a mode that has no gameplay at all (not a single RPG battle or anything), then it can be included here. But I'd list it as an exception with a suitable explanation that only one specific mode can be considered a VN, not the entire game. Kinda like BlazBlue, where story mode is a valid VN hybrid, while other modes have nothing to do with a VN.
- Long Live The Queen and Magical Diary: Horse Hall should have been deleted a long time ago... -.-'
- I'm not familiar with Tokimeki Memorial though, so I can't say much about it.
- King of Dragon Pass? Nope.
If i understand this right - any dating sim and similar games is not VN and should be removed like Princess maker, amagami, etc.
Same for games what have strong RPG and strategy elements like Utawarerumono, Daibanchou -Big Bang Age-, Daiteikoku and Galaxy angel where RPG/Strategy elements is have large part in the game, but not main part.

BlazBlue if i remember right is fighting with little VN part(story mode), like Soul calibur in these games main part is fighting and strong one, more than 80% of game.

In my opinion dating sim and any games(with RPG, strategy and other elements) what have enough amount VN(around 30% and more) is should be on VN list here, because they have not enough for only stay in one genre (RPG, strategy or other.), dating sims and raising sims in my opinion is VN with few changes(stats, dates and plans for these dates).

[Sorry for my english, its not my native language]Last modified on 2016-02-09 at 08:24
#81 by beliar
2016-02-09 at 08:51
Nah, you misunderstood. What the current rules state, is that any hybrid game has to have narration and the story must continue uninterrupted for significant amounts of time. I am also willing to look at the spirit of the law and give pass to games that might not have narration as such, but where the story is particularly extensive and the gameplay is rudimentary.
The only game I have removed yet is Long Live the Queen.
The other game hovering on the precipice is Gadget Trial, as it has story/gameplay ratio horribly skewed towards gameplay. Are there any other games in the DB like GT, because I'm trying to determine if it's removal won't stir shit up *insert whiny kid voice*: "Why was GT removed, but game X is still in the DB?"
#82 by dk382
2016-02-09 at 08:53
If i understand this right - any dating sim and similar games is not VN and should be removed like Princess maker, amagami, etc.
Same for games what have strong RPG and strategy elements like Utawarerumono, Daibanchou -Big Bang Age-, Daiteikoku and Galaxy angel where RPG/Strategy elements is have large part in the game, but not main part.
Then you are not understanding it right. Most of the games you just mentioned meet our criteria just fine.

edit: I don't know if there's anything else like GT in the database, but honestly, if there is then they should go. I think Gadget Trial should definitely be deleted. There's no good reason at all to keep it, or anything like it here.Last modified on 2016-02-09 at 08:55
#83 by samael2500
2016-02-09 at 09:24
Thank you Beliar and Dk382, now i understand.

edit: GT looks like TBS with little VN part(almost no story at start of game, just chat of characters), even as TBS game not so good(almost no info about units in battle).
I played War of the human tanks, what have not bad story as VN and good TBS part, what way more good than GT.Last modified on 2016-02-09 at 10:32
#84 by takata
2016-02-09 at 09:48
What the current rules state, is that any hybrid game has to have narration and the story must continue uninterrupted for significant amounts of time. I am also willing to look at the spirit of the law and give pass to games that might not have narration as such, but where the story is particularly extensive and the gameplay is rudimentary.
That sounds ok, because Galaxy Angel has nearly no narration (to the point that it would be hard to find more than a handful of boxes that -might- be considered narration), yet it is obviously a VN due to the way it is presented, the story/gameplay ratio, and the long stretches of story uninterrupted by anything that could be considered as "gameplay".Last modified on 2016-02-09 at 09:51
#85 by bunnyadvocate
2016-02-09 at 19:25
edit: Nevermind, I don't want to get involved.Last modified on 2016-02-09 at 19:29
#86 by supervamp78
2016-02-09 at 19:44
So if Long live the queen goes that does that mean the tokimeki series goes as well?
#87 by beliar
2016-02-10 at 11:38
Unless people are gonna strenuously object to that, I'm gonna remove Gadget Trial from the DB in the evening.
The game really doesn't fit our criteria. There is no narration, and the gameplay/story ratio is very much skewed towards the former with short ADV cutscenes amidst drawn out battles.
#88 by tyr
2016-02-10 at 12:09
I'm absolutely against removing Gadget Trial, but I'm not participating in this autistic discussion.
This thread is cancer. It's getting bigger and bigger and destroys vital parts of vndb. It should have been erased, but it's probably too big now.
Well, have fun killing the patient.
#89 by ginseigou
2016-02-10 at 12:15
So what about deleting Cobra Mission: Panic in Cobra City? It doesn't have any relations and almost a pure rpg with erotic content
#90 by warfoki
2016-02-10 at 13:52
@Tyr: If you can only contribute with kindergarten level insults, then your contribution won't be missed, believe me.

Gadget Trial has never belonged here. And this has nothing to do with whether I like the game or not.

With that being said thogh, I would keep the VN-dating sim hybrids and the older, 90s RPGs with ADV scenes. The former because they are closely related gnres and in the mosr cases it's finicky to decide if they belong here or not; and thre latter because they are essentially the predecessors of the modern VNs.

Basically we should only get rid of titles that are VERY clearly not VNs (like Gadget Trial) and leave everything else, adding the more questionable titles to d15.
#91 by beliar
2016-02-10 at 14:00
I agree with Warfoki. Rather than saying "Game X was removed, so game Y must go as well", I would rather concentrate on games that obviously do not belong here.

I remember trying Cobra Mission 14 or so years ago. It didn't hook me, but then I had different interests when I was that age. I would prefer to leave it be, out of respect for its age.
#92 by ginseigou
2016-02-10 at 14:00
With that being said thogh, I would keep the VN-dating sim hybrids and the older, 90s RPGs with ADV scenes.
Many console games including RPGs had ADV scenes in 90s. By this logic i can add almost anything old.
#93 by tyr
2016-02-10 at 14:46
@warfoki: I was not insulting. I used appropriate metaphors to describe how I see this discussion.
It's autistic because the discussion here is incapable of grasping the meaning of what a VN truly is. The arguments here are all on a superficial, logical level without understanding the heart of the issue. This approach is fundamentally wrong and can only bring unsatisfying solutions.
Because of this, it's also cancer. Regardless of what your solution will be, it will not cover the true essence of what a VN is thus a small subset of VNs which don't match with this solution will inevitably be excluded. Like Gadget Trial.
#94 by [deleted]
2016-02-10 at 15:06
So what is "the true essence of what a VN is," in your view?
#95 by warfoki
2016-02-10 at 15:07
Then, by all means, enlighten us. You are using big words, but fail to present a set of objective criteria that we could consider. And no, "it feels like a VN" won't cut it.
#96 by usagi
2016-02-10 at 15:37
I strongly suspect it's something like "but there are cute girls!" argument )Last modified on 2016-02-10 at 22:36
#97 by ginseigou
2016-02-10 at 16:14
Maybe he's trying to say that there's no pure definition and all decisions made by mods are subjective? We have relation exceptions or exceptions for old games, games that some people who control the database like and it was decided arbitrary.Last modified on 2016-02-10 at 16:18
#98 by abyssaleros
2016-02-10 at 17:00
Just rename the database into AVGDB and all these useless nazi-discussions are gone.

AVG for adventure game not adult video game btw.Last modified on 2016-02-10 at 17:05
#99 by gabezhul
2016-02-10 at 17:39
Just rename the database into AVGDB and all these useless nazi-discussions are gone.

AVG for adventure game not adult video game btw.
Yep, great idea. Destroy the concept and purpose of a useful niche database so that you won't have to see any "nazi-discussions". Oh wait, but if we do that then action-adventure games would feel left out, so we should include those too so that we could avoid those "nazi-discussions". But wait again, if we include those, we also have to include action games. Shooters have action too, right? We better include those too. But wait, Portal is technically and FPS, so we have to include puzzle games as well. And since Puzzle Quest is also an RPG, we also have to include all JRPGs and WRPGs ever made! But wait, the term "RPG" originally referred to pen-and-paper roleplaying, so we should include gamebooks too. But if we include those, we should include normal books, but then comic books too, but some of those were made into audiobooks so we should include those as well and fuck it, at this point we might as well just rename it to EUMFSDB.

The EUTMFS stands for "everything under the mother-fucking sun", not "Elliot's uber-masculine frisbee spins"... unless you want it to. We can accommodate that, the only important thing is that we avoid those nasty, nasty "nazi-discussions", amirite guyz? [/sarcasm]


Maybe he's trying to say that there's no pure definition and all decisions made by mods are subjective? We have relation exceptions or exceptions for old games, games that some people who control the database like and it was decided arbitrary.
Point at one. Seriously, I fucking dare you. Just point at a game that is there because we arbitrarily decided so.

Every single entry under d15 is a result of YEARS of back-and-forth discussion, arguments and them being in or not being in the DB had led to SEVERAL changes in DB policy over the years, which is obviously still a process since the border-lines between VN, hybrid and game are just too fuzzy. We don't just decide, "Well, I like this game so it should be in the DB" on a whim and insist on it. That's what you do, mister "let's keep pestering the thread about King of Dragon Pass".
#100 by warfoki
2016-02-10 at 18:21
I'm fairly sure Abyssaleros was sarcastic there. :P

Point at one. Seriously, I fucking dare you. Just point at a game that is there because we arbitrarily decided so.

Gadget Trial. The only reason why that wasn't removed ages ago is because some of the mods then liked it and therefore nobody else bothered.

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