Game inclusion in the DB

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#126 by beliar
2016-02-11 at 16:53
My opinion about "Digital" is expressed in this post t7442.62
Snatcher and Policenauts (not Psychonauts) are VNs. There is very little actual gameplay (a few shooting sequences). The old school Look/Talk/Pick-your-nose mechanic is not considered gameplay by us, but rather corresponds to the modern choice-based mechanics.
Edit: I know nothing about "Aravorn", so if Minah wants to take some kind of action against it, she is welcome.Last modified on 2016-02-11 at 16:56
#127 by [deleted]
2016-02-11 at 16:54
@125 Well, that's two, not hundreds, but sure. I've already said (either here or in some other thread) that SotW isn't really a VN. (I've played the whole thing except for the expansion.) It's a JRPG with a high gameplay-story ratio and no narration (except for an occasional few lines of internal monologue). My only argument for keeping it was its relation to Loren. I think beliar can make a better argument re: Digital because I haven't played it recently.

EDIT:

The old school Look/Talk/Pick-your-nose mechanic is not considered gameplay by us, but rather corresponds to the modern choice-based mechanics.

That could be made clearer in the guidelines, so it doesn't just seem like older games get a pass.Last modified on 2016-02-11 at 16:56
#128 by ginseigou
2016-02-11 at 17:01
The old school Look/Talk/Pick-your-nose mechanic is not considered gameplay by us, but rather corresponds to the modern choice-based mechanics.
They more related to the Western quests like i said, they called adventures for a reason. More than that, these games are predecessors to modern movie-style games like Fahrenheit or Heavy rain.
#129 by palas
2016-02-11 at 17:04
Oh yeah that, thanks for correcting. And, well, if Looking/Talking etc aren't gameplay, then I won't say anything else about them.

I have not an argument favouring Digital, but the argument that the only actual difference between Digital and Analogue is that Analogue has sprites - and even then in a different context. Really, it's the only structural difference.

What narration is there in Analogue is in the form of logs, not unlike Dragon Age. So it can't be considered narration, I figure. If Digital isn't a VN, then Analogue isn't, either. And, for some reason, deleting Analogue doesn't sound like the coolest idea to me, not only because it's once again ignoring the developments of VNs in the West, but also because it makes vndb lose its utility not so slowly - it's among the 1% most popular titles in the ranks, meaning lots of people get to know VNs through Analogue or the other way around. Once again an ad populum if you want to call it that, but it still begs the question of why vndb even exists if not for people to use it, find new VNs to play and get more acquainted with its culture.Last modified on 2016-02-11 at 17:05
#130 by [deleted]
2016-02-11 at 17:05
on SotW
dk said back in post t7442.106 that relations were not really enough of a reason to keep a entry and was looking for someone to point one out so guess there is one now.Last modified on 2016-02-11 at 17:05
#131 by beliar
2016-02-11 at 17:07
@ginseigou: Sure, Snatcher and Policenauts are more cinematic than other VNs of that era, but majority of VNs from the early '90s used the "Talk/Look" "gameplay", which eventually evolved into the much more simplistic "choices". These games are precursors to the modern VNs, but they are visual novels in their own right, even though they might not have been called that at the time. After all, the term "visual novel" is relatively young.Last modified on 2016-02-11 at 17:09
#132 by ginseigou
2016-02-11 at 17:11
Actually, visual novels are often referred as adventure games by Japanese developers even now, but I still think that Snatcher is rather closer to games like Full Throttle
#133 by palas
2016-02-11 at 17:12
STILL, if Look/Talk/Use aren't gameplay, what *is*? The reason I ask is once again because the definition of both gameplay and story seem shaky at best, especially for how it's implied they're two things so different you can determine a numerical ratio between them.
#134 by bunnyadvocate
2016-02-11 at 17:14
>Please point them out so we can remove them, then, or at least include them in this discussion.

How about the entirety of the Rance series to start with? Actually, how about almost anything tagged as a Dungeon Crawling Game? You tend to spend *far* longer on the gameplay than any plot.

>I also agree with beliar (based on my 10 or so hours playing the game) that it's really a text-heavy raising sim.

If you want to get rid of all raising-sums then that's fine, there are plenty on vndb to keep you busy deleting for a while. But at the moment your words ring hollow when you've only pointed the finger at LLtQ.

>Your defense of including LLTQ in the database is claiming that the only possible reason for its deletion is that people hate all-ages OELVNs aimed at a female audience.

No, the whole problem is that this wide-ranging purge is that it's only going to be applied to those VNs that don't have adherents here on the board defending them, but given that the denizens on this board tend to be of a rather narrow subset, it means the application of these rules is extremely uneven.
#135 by jazz957
2016-02-11 at 17:15
@131: Yes.The term was coined by Leaf in like 96. :P And it only referred to NVL style games. It was based on Sound Novel a term coined by Chunsoft.Last modified on 2016-02-11 at 17:18
#136 by abyssaleros
2016-02-11 at 17:22
There is the solution, presented by Jazz957.
Everything not in NVL mode needs to be deleted as it is actually no visual novel.
Btw gabezhul I am always sarcastic but sometimes even sarcasm rings true.
#137 by jazz957
2016-02-11 at 17:31
But since this site is for the west more or less, we should probably use the western definition which includes NVL and ADV. :P
PS: I know you're being sarcastic
#138 by eolath
2016-02-11 at 18:33
Christ, no, I actually like VNs w/ SRPG elements and use VNDB to maintain and find them.

How about simply applying the new rules to future releases instead of past releases? Everything that is newly added will have to adhere to the current ruleset, while older releases were added at the time because the previous rules allowed them in.

Let's not wreck the DataBase just to satisfy a few purists, this whole discussion has started to feel more like a slippery slope in action. One entry is deleted, onto the next.
#139 by beliar
2016-02-11 at 18:37
No need to be worried, Eolath. No one intends to remove VN/RPG hybrids from the DB. Some people on this page are being sarcastic, others are alarmists who see the removal of two games as the start of Descent into Darkness. In other words - another usual sunny day on VNDB.
#140 by bunnyadvocate
2016-02-11 at 18:44
Ah of course, now we move onto games beliar likes we suddenly hear the voice of caution. Why *are* we keeping SRPGs then? What makes them more worthy than raising sims that have much more story to them?
#141 by eolath
2016-02-11 at 18:51
Well, it's not sarcasm if someone claims (s)he was being completely truthful.

@Bunnyadvocate
>What makes them more worthy than raising sims that have much more story to them?

Define ''story''. Why would raising sims, by definition, have more story to them than VN hybrids? And how is having a story to them at all relevant? I remember some people jokingly added The Witcher 3 to the DataBase some time ago. Lots of story to be found there, but I don't think you'll find anyone claiming that is a VN.

You claim Beliar is biased, but from that statement alone you seem no better.
#142 by jazz957
2016-02-11 at 18:52
@140: We can still talk about LLtQ on the subreddit right? Even though VNDB has declared it not one. :PLast modified on 2016-02-11 at 18:53
#143 by bunnyadvocate
2016-02-11 at 19:00
>Define ''story''. Why would raising sims, by definition, have more story to them than VN hybrids? And how is having a story to them at all relevant? I remember some people jokingly added The Witcher 3 to the DataBase some time ago. Lots of story to be found there, but I don't think you'll find anyone claiming that is a VN.

By "story" I was using shorthand for text-heavy scenes. It seems to be the defining characteristic by what we allow here. I'm wondering why LLtQs scenes count for less than Rance's scenes?
#144 by jazz957
2016-02-11 at 19:06
Also, it's not just about story, it's also about how much narration it has.
#145 by eolath
2016-02-11 at 19:11
Do they count for less? Never played it, you'll have to ask someone else. However, Rance (I presume you mean Sengoku Rance here) has plenty of VN scenes. I'd say it'd still be a pretty longish game if you tie all text scenes together.

What are you even trying to argue for here? If you advocate the reversed deletion of Long Live the Queen how about you convince us that it fits within the current ruleset instead of attacking other VNs that might not be your cup of tea?
#146 by bunnyadvocate
2016-02-11 at 19:18
I'm only asking for consistency. I've played some of the first Rance game and its "VN scenes" are no more than a minute long (the intro doesn't count), and yet LLtQ which has longer scenes than that has been deemed ineligible. I'm fine if we want to narrow the VN definition and remove LLtQ, but I think we need to be fair about this and remove all these other games that have slipped into the database just because they have a h-scene at some point or because a mod here is a fan. It's the rank hypocrisy going on here that has me annoyed.

edit: I'm primarily talking about the early Rance games here, *not* Sengoku Rance which clearly has some longer VN type scenes.Last modified on 2016-02-11 at 19:20
#147 by eolath
2016-02-11 at 19:28
Looking at the previous page, you seem to have already come to your own conclusions. But I digress.

Now, if LLTQ does qualify as a VN it'd be under the ''Hybrids'' category in the ruleset, which is at follows:

Visual Novel / Game hybrids that have the following characteristics:

(1)
The game consistently uses the novel narrative for telling its story. Examples include describing visuals, events, character actions or thoughts.
This point is ESSENTIAL - dialogues, no matter how extensive, are a characteristic of such game genres as RPGs, adventure games, dating simulations, etc., NOT of visual novels.

(2)
The story is told employing one of the known Visual Novel presentation methods such as ADV, NVL and their variations, consistently and for a significant length - at least 50% of the game should be made of pure, VN-style reading.

If you think LLTQ qualifies under this ruleset, then make your case. Thus far you've only agreed with other people and attacked Gabe & Beliar.
#148 by bunnyadvocate
2016-02-11 at 19:32
I don't need to defend LLtQ, I'm not saying we need to keep it. I'm just picking up this crusade where beliar left it. Now onto the Rance series, please justify the inclusion of Rance 1?
#149 by eolath
2016-02-11 at 19:35
Funny, because you were in complete agreement with megazerox. Remember what complete means? Now back up your statement and make your case.
#150 by bunnyadvocate
2016-02-11 at 19:44
Why? Can't you defend Rance? Are you scared of the can of worms beliar has opened? Are you perhaps seeing the idiocy of this new approach?

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