Game inclusion in the DB

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#176 by usagi
2016-02-12 at 00:30
Palas and Megazerox have brought up some valid arguments and we may need to re-evaluate the title if its second half contains a different balance of VN to gameplay than the first half. I'll give LLtQ a spin myself.
Somehow I strongly suspect that narration there tends to be appearing in more than marginal quantities only towards the endings ) Like it is always the case in all pure raising/dating sims. And how much percent of game's time endings covers usually? 5%? 10%? Something tells me that in case of LLtQ it will be like 1% at best.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 00:37
#177 by palas
2016-02-12 at 00:41
Well, see for yourself. The examples I gathered are all from the beginning to the middle of the game. The ball scene and the forest scene in particular are heavy on narration and aren't even close to the endings. There's also the cousin's party, to which I hardly ever go because it's such a bother, but from what I recall it has lots of narration too.

That is, "beginning" and "middle" for the path I always take, which is to get Elodie to become a magician knowledgeable in foreign affairs and intrigue. I've never even tried the prim and proper princess routes and I don't think I have ever trained the animal skills. I don't know what happens if you do.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 00:43
#178 by usagi
2016-02-12 at 01:33
Ok. Then all that remains is make sure that "The story is told.. consistently and for a significant length - at least 50% of the game should be made of pure, VN-style reading". Somehow I doubt it.. I mean maybe some key events there has decent narration quantity to qualify for being vn-style fragment - but all in all I suppose such events are not 50% of the game.
Also, as I mentioned before already, honestly I think that datesims/raising sims should be allowed here - since they are similar genres, they are almost not covered at all at general game sites like gamespot, ign etc. and, main reason: too many pure and classic raising and daiting sims contains narration in significant amount to be included here and considered as hybrids whereas true fans of such genres holds them as pure titles, thinks that narration there is natural for them and would consider any mix in of other genres in their definition as blasphemy.
So, don't get me wrong, I am not your enemy or something.. But! Since I realize that deep-rooted order of things here almost impossible to change now - at least so radically - I choosing to support existing rules here. I mean whatever thing I would choose - I think it should be done as perfectly as it can.

Also, I don't get why are you so frustrated by deleting of this game? It's not like this is the only Hanako Games title excluded in vndb. There are other raising sims there, like Cute Knight or Black Closet - which aren't here and will never be. Maybe they are even better then LLtQ, who knows. So, what is the difference if one more raising sim will become exlusive to only their homepage catalog? I mean, people who will like some of their games here enough - they will be able to guess visiting their site to check their products themselves, I am sure.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 01:47
#179 by bunnyadvocate
2016-02-12 at 02:00
>Also, I don't get why are you so frustrated by deleting of this game?

Just to be clear, I'm not a fan of LLtQ, nor of the raising sim genre. What I'm annoyed at is the attitude here, the elitism involved in completely dismissing the many tens of thousands of fans on Steam that clearly think it's a VN, and the rank hypocrisy of the selective enforcement of these rules.

Perhaps LLtQ doesn't have enough narration to warrant its inclusion here, it could have less than 50% narration screen-time compared with gameplay depending upon your reading and decision making speeds, but then neither does any Rance title (trying to pretend otherwise is utterly absurd), nor many other Vns here. Yet just look at what happened once Rance was mentioned. Suddenly the rules had gone too far! How dare I suggest we remove it! Everyone was suddenly very conciliatory once their favoured VN was on the chopping block...Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 02:02
#180 by dk382
2016-02-12 at 02:14
I don't even fucking like Rance, dude. You "threatening" Rance had zero impact on my decision to investigate LLtQ more thoroughly and even if I decide that LLtQ isn't coming back, Rance is not going onto the chopping block. End of story.
#181 by palas
2016-02-12 at 02:14
Ok. Then all that remains is make sure that "The story is told.. consistently and for a significant length - at least 50% of the game should be made of pure, VN-style reading". Somehow I doubt it.. I mean maybe some key events there has decent narration quantity to qualify for being vn-style fragment - but all in all I suppose such events are not 50% of the game.

As far as I'm concerned, the second clause only requires 50% of the game having ADV or NVL style, which LLtQ passes with flying colours. Narration is not a requirement here - unless you'd be willing to exclude dialogue from being proper VN-style reading just because it's dialogue (dialogue being a literary genre even). That's if we allow ourselves the luxury of excluding how LLtQ uses that strange tactic to show the protagonist's thoughts as dialogue, except between parentheses.

Also, I don't get why are you so frustrated by deleting of this game? It's not like this is the only Hanako Games title excluded in vndb. There are other raising sims there, like Cute Knight or Black Closet - which aren't here and will never be. Maybe they are even better then LLtQ, who knows. So, what is the difference if one more raising sim will become exlusive to only their homepage catalog? I mean, people who will like some of their games here enough - they will be able to guess visiting their site to check their products themselves, I am sure.

Can't talk about Cute Knight as I haven't played it, but Black Closet is certainly better than LLtQ. A LOT better. Really, it's one of the most interesting games I came across last year. However, LLtQ and Black Closet are different from one another in many ways - Long Live the Queen is, first of all, a lot less... raising sim-y than Black Closet. Indeed, in the latter, solving cases is fun it itself, you've got repeating cases and all, and it could last forever - the management sim could easily exist as a standalone game, which is not the case with LLtQ: in the end you raise Elodie because the story told you to and the system works having the story as a referential.

(Not that I'd hate to see Black Closet listed)

But there's also the fact that LLtQ is a lot more famous. It's Hanako Games' flagship. It's convenient to have LLtQ here because a lot of people consider it a visual novel, Hanako Games themselves included, or at least see it tagged under the genre on Steam. They could check their site, but why not have it here if it meets the criteria anyway? It makes navigation easier for everyone.

In the end it has a lot to do with acknowledging how the West took VNs and what it's making out of them. Having it here is, more than anything, useful for OELVNs as a whole since it *is* tagged as a visual novel and there *are* people who get interested in the genre because of it.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 02:19
#182 by bunnyadvocate
2016-02-12 at 02:24
>I don't even fucking like Rance, dude. You "threatening" Rance had zero impact on my decision to investigate LLtQ more thoroughly and even if I decide that LLtQ isn't coming back, Rance is not going onto the chopping block. End of story.

Precisely my original point, rank double standards.
#183 by [deleted]
2016-02-12 at 02:37
Black Closet is also tagged as a visual novel on Steam. So are JRPGs, some text-only interactive fiction, and A Bird Story (which is a story without any text at all). "It's tagged a VN on Steam" isn't really a solid argument.
#184 by palas
2016-02-12 at 02:41
I don't see why not. Unlike any other example you mentioned, people don't discover VNs through LLtQ and find everything else so dissimilar they lose interest. That and, aside some text-only games you mentioned (I'm thinking of Emily is Away, mostly. Dunno about you), they don't aggregate anything to the genre's conventions or culture because - for instance - JRPGs are that - JRPGs, a much more powerful, well funded and recognized genre.

It's really all about practicality, which incorporating A Bird Story, for example, doesn't bring - but LLtQ does.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 02:45
#185 by ginseigou
2016-02-12 at 04:00
I want to propose again not to make picky distinctions between hybrids and add all of them, we have old style adventure games after all. Those hybrid western vns might be what Japanese vns will transform into eventually. Considering the growing popularity of Steam, Japanese developers will try to make vns similar to the western, you can't stop the changes. The requirements for inclusion were made by site users, why can't site users change them?Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 04:43
#186 by mashirori
2016-02-12 at 04:25
>we have old style adventure games after all.
This is something I was thinking of just now. There are old games in this database with probably less than 5 minutes of narration. If you're unwilling to accept a game that has narration throughout something like 1 third or fourth of the game, why keep all the text adventure titles from the 80s and 90s?
#187 by tyr
2016-02-12 at 04:55
Yeah, let's kill the roots of the genre because its clearly not part of the genre.
Called it ... this thread is cancer.
#188 by gabezhul
2016-02-12 at 05:08
This is something I was thinking of just now. There are old games in this database with probably less than 5 minutes of narration. If you're unwilling to accept a game that has narration throughout something like 1 third or fourth of the game, why keep all the text adventure titles from the 80s and 90s?
#1: You are comparing apples to oranges.
#2: Examples, please. You are too generic.

As for the general discussion level here:
@Bunnyadvocate: Just shut up. At this point you are just spewing bullshit to "protect the opinion of people on Steam". You are not their knight in shining armor. Whether LLtQ qualifies or not will be decided by how well it fits our criteria and will probably come down to a discussion forming a consensus. Repeatedly bringing up how its popular doesn't help that discussion, and if you can't keep it for yourself I will be forced to stop you from distracting others myself.

@Megazerox: Snark back all you want, I don't mind. Just be aware, I have been through this dance routine way too many times. I have seen the exact same general arguments from popularity, authority, slippery slopes and other idiocies employed by people when they were grasping for straws to keep their pet games in the DB. Excuse me for being jaded, but I am so tired of this discussion (not just this thread, but the topic in general) that I can only muster irritated apathy, and that's why I only answer when I see something really wrong, like your first post in this thread. The rest was okay though, and unlike Bunnyadvocate you are contributing properly since then, so you are off the hook in my book.

@Et All: While the discussion is more turbulent that I would like (though I expected as much from the topic), it seems productive. Carry on.

However, here are a few pointers for everyone:
-Stop using generic arguments about how "there are hundreds of games that fit/don't fit and yet are here/not here" and the like. Be specific so they can be discussed.
-Stop bringing up Steam, its tags or how popular a game is. None of those are an indication of whether a title fits our criteria and it just derails the discussion.
-This is an utilitarian database created specifically so that English-speaking people on the net can find *visual novels* in particular. As such the goal of the DB, in order of importance, is to include all pure VNs, include all hybrids that fit, exclude all hybrids or games that don't fit. Popularity and personal opinion on a title should never even factor into this. Please keep this in mind both when you are arguing the inclusion/exclusion of something and when you are accusing others.

And now if you excuse me, I have to disappear for a while again. Be nice to each other.
#189 by bunnyadvocate
2016-02-12 at 05:32
Given that our baseline requirement for text/narration content is 50%, I think we can eventually cut a wide swathe through the majority of the SRPG, Turn based strategy, Dungeon Crawling and some other gameplay tagged games, but let's start easy and work out way up.

First up on the chopping block first is Mamanyonyo (link). Overwhelming your time is spent on the strategy game-play, at least 95% by my estimate from my try of it. There are some brief scenes between battles, but they're hardly enough to be called a VN by our Pope.
#190 by abyssaleros
2016-02-12 at 05:38
#185: May all the dark gods beware!
Japanese companies changing their developements because of shitty (personal opinion) stuff some idiots on steam tagged as Visual novels?
That would be the point a lot of us here and in japan would go on rampage...

At least no serious japanese company (commercial or doujin) except Key and they are not serious in this point would consider this in the slightest.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 05:39
#191 by ginseigou
2016-02-12 at 05:53
Well, they already changed an approach to development of adventure games several times in the past. Games of all genres changed.
#192 by abyssaleros
2016-02-12 at 05:56
Mamanyonyo is an exception as it is part of the Alice 2010 compilation which includes fitting candidates and because it revers to a lot of other titles by Alice Soft.
Just stop - or I lable you personally as Obersturmbannführer in regard of leading the nazi-discussion onward.
#193 by ginseigou
2016-02-12 at 06:03
I've already seen that one of the mods in this thread said that a relation is not a good reason to keep such games in the database.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 06:15
#194 by [deleted]
2016-02-12 at 06:03
Obersturmbannführer had to google that XD,

relations arn't enough of a reason to justify keeping an entry at least that's what dk382 mentioned back on t7442.106 and that if one was found it should be discussed,
but either way something tells me Bunny's 95% gameplay ratio claim cant be trusted.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 06:04
#195 by megazerox
2016-02-12 at 06:25
#190 Genres and culture slowly change over time. Look at how much first person shooters have changed in the last 20 years. Heck, even in the last 5 years, there has been a lot that has changed. Developers may not explicitly change their ideas to conform to things like this, but people always, at least subconsciously, take in information which will cause them to produce different results. Almost no medium is in complete stagnation, and when mediums approach that, they usually aren't commercially successful.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 06:26
#196 by abyssaleros
2016-02-12 at 10:06
I know that all things change over the course of time, I personally changed from moma's dear to an asshole.
Even japanese media changes, see my post in #152.

I just doubt that japanese companies (especially the ones producing eroge) will undergo a change to make their games more like the western shit which steam sells as visual novels.
Okay as long as Sekai Project lives on and D.Trump will be the next president of the land of the idiots, maybe they will force japan to do so... but only maybe.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 10:11
#197 by usagi
2016-02-12 at 12:25
@181

As far as I'm concerned, the second clause only requires 50% of the game having ADV or NVL style, which LLtQ passes with flying colours. Narration is not a requirement here - unless you'd be willing to exclude dialogue from being proper VN-style reading just because it's dialogue (dialogue being a literary genre even). That's if we allow ourselves the luxury of excluding how LLtQ uses that strange tactic to show the protagonist's thoughts as dialogue, except between parentheses.

Key words here are not narration but "pure VN-style reading" I think - whereas in LLtQ reading are often interrupted by gamemechanic decisions and text related to it.

@179
but then neither does any Rance title (trying to pretend otherwise is utterly absurd), nor many other Vns here

Actually high quantity of h-scenes in Rance games are their "saving grace" since if you read them all combined - they provide rather big chunk of the game with narration. Maybe if that wasn't the case - Rance couldn't make it here.. but it is only what if scenario.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 12:33
#198 by palas
2016-02-12 at 12:30
-Stop bringing up Steam, its tags or how popular a game is. None of those are an indication of whether a title fits our criteria and it just derails the discussion.
-This is an utilitarian database created specifically so that English-speaking people on the net can find *visual novels* in particular

Pick one. Either you build a database for the sake of its own criteria or you build an utilitarian database. If there being a certain title here is useful for people, makes navigation easier, stimulates looking up similar titles and doesn't overshadow VNs that benefit from the database, how can popularity and notions outside vndb's criteria not matter at all? Didn't you mention the main reason not to remove Phoenix Wright is backlash?
#199 by palas
2016-02-12 at 12:37
Key words here are not narration but "pure VN-style reading" I think - whereas in LLtQ reading are often interrupted by gamemechanic decisions and text related to it.

It still takes up far more than 50% of the game. Game mechanic decisions never interrupt actual scenes but a traditional VN choice system often does, yes. The text related to the game mechanics (Internal Affairs -> Partial Success, Lore -> Failure etc) also never interrupts the scenes. It appears at the same time as the text so as to explain why you got that piece of dialogue or consequence. I can see how it could be a problem if we were talking about more abstract definitions, but as for the current guidelines and the way they're written, it isn't enough to invalidate LLtQ's constant presence of ADV-style reading.Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 12:38
#200 by [deleted]
2016-02-12 at 13:09
happy 200th,

some quotes.
May all the dark gods beware!
Just rename the database into AVGDB and all these useless nazi-discussions are gone.
we might as well just rename it to EUMFSDB. The EUTMFS stands for "everything under the mother-fucking sun"
In a JRPG, more than 5 battles per hour is grind in my eyes.
But bears are protected... and hairy... and scary... wouldn't chickens suffice? :P
Why? Can't you defend Rance?
I don't even fucking like Rance
Rance would be pissed. And you don't want to piss him off. :P
We don't do ads and click-whoring
Ah of course, now we move onto games beliar likes we suddenly hear the voice of caution.
Don't worry, it's for gabe's benefit. Now he can look out his dictionary of fallacies, cry "ad hominem," and not actually address anything.
"but there are cute girls!" argument
I don't actually expect people like gabezhul to agree with me though, he's spent too long here, he sees the database as his fiefdom now
This thread is cancer. It's getting bigger and bigger and destroys vital parts of vndb. It should have been erased, but it's probably too big now. Well, have fun killing the patient.
Be nice to each other.
one more
I myself could call bullshit on everything I said, despite it being all true.
Last modified on 2016-02-12 at 13:14