Does this still count as a VN?

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#1 by samthenayru
2016-03-17 at 03:14
< report >The first trailer and more details just dropped about ZTD.
It seems that the visual novel sections have been completely dropped for animated cinematics. Does this still count as a visual novel...?
#2 by kiru
2016-03-17 at 09:55
< report >Nobody knows until the full game gets released. A trailer.. is supposed to look flashy. The dev is obviously not too high budget, so I'd assume you'll get plenty of rather static VN style scenes.
#3 by kilicool64
2016-03-17 at 10:32
< report >It's probably still too early to tell for sure, but here's a quote from a recent news article (link):

"The developers say the story will be told through cinematics; there’s no more lengthy prose. All of the dialogue will be voiced. “You can play the game without reading,” they say. They’re also trying to make it as accessible as possible to people who haven’t played the first two games."
#4 by kiru
2016-03-17 at 11:33
< report >This doesn't sound good. This would mean the story will probably take more of a backseat this time around. Which it really shouldn't in this kind of series.

Why can't I help but think, this is done because the US publisher was a big part of realizing this game? US people don't like to read after all... this game might burn.
#5 by dk382
2016-03-19 at 03:00
< report >We'll keep it until the game is released, then we can determine whether or not it belongs once we've actually played it. My gut reaction says that we'll actually end up removing it.

Also, I reverted the PC release back to the 2016 fuzzy date, it seems like Famitsu was just wrong about the simultaneous Steam launch.
#6 by supervamp78
2016-04-03 at 05:01
< report >well it could be like school days.
#7 by kiru
2016-04-03 at 09:18
< report >That's the problem with having weird exceptions like School Days in this DB.
With this title you can even argue that it has more value for the DB, as it has valid prequels in here. (having the final part of a trilogy not in the DB is kinda.. weird) School Days doesn't have that as far as I know.

Well, it's a common topic. On the one hand some people say that it's better to leave some borderline titles here, as it'd be too much trouble otherwise. On the the other hand you will always get cases like this, making me wonder if it's really the right thing. Maybe it IS time to remove stuff like -Days, Eushully games and so on. Or it's time to expand vndb to explicitly allow these types, just not as "visual novels" or whatever. I mean these hybrids are here for a reason. But having them as "exceptions" is just not the right thing I think. Well, again, same story as always.. and it will repeat again and again, until the rules are actually clear without exceptions.Last modified on 2016-04-03 at 09:19
#8 by kilicool64
2016-04-03 at 11:49
< report >@7 I don't think we should be more lenient towards non-VNs that are part of the same series as VNs. I already said this some time ago, but with a rule like this you could argue that the original Corpse Party deserves to be here.Last modified on 2016-04-03 at 14:19
#9 by kiru
2016-04-03 at 19:12
< report >It's not about "same series". But rather about "final part of a trilogy".

Remakes, spin-offs and so on aren't really the same thing as the conclusion to a story spanning over three games. So no, I don't think Corpse Party can be argued to be here if you'd accept a not VN ZE3. Very little could be. Most things are really either all or none things. (i.e. Ar Tonelico trilogy) But with ZE, the first two do belong here I'd say. Not much to argue there. You mostly read, and everything you read is a typical VN.
#10 by dk382
2016-05-19 at 07:54
< report >So, looking at the recent ZTD footage that was released, it seems like this will be the entirety of what the game is: link

Unless someone can come up with evidence for some kind of VN-like mode before then, this game will be removed tomorrow.

edit: I know that I said we'd keep it until the game's release, but I think there's already sufficient evidence for its removal, and I don't want people to waste any more time fleshing out the characters.Last modified on 2016-05-19 at 07:58
#11 by kilicool64
2016-05-19 at 08:40
< report >@10 Yeah, that doesn't look very VN-like at all as far as presentation is concerned. I agree that it should be removed, as weird as it may be for the sequel to two VNs not to have an entry.
#12 by vario
2016-05-19 at 10:18
< report >Just create a poll and ask what other people think about the removal. It might be not a VN in the way we all know (daily reminder about School Days), but I don't see why vndb should be strict as hell about it. Because it's not even a fandisc or something. It's a final part of the series that has 1-2k votes on previous entries.Last modified on 2016-05-19 at 10:18
#13 by kiru
2016-05-19 at 10:53
< report >Don't think we need a poll. Just a standardized way of dealing with this stuff. Either all or none. If none, remove School Days and so on as well. If all, then this is fine as well as it then has a reason to be here thanks to its prequels. As it is, it's just awkward.
#14 by alexandraidv
2016-05-19 at 11:43
< report >While this is not a VN, I do think one has to take into account what's helpful to VNDB readers: ZTD is the final entry of a big-name VN franchise, and is still a story-focused adventure game. If the previous two games had not been made, I would not have argued for ZTD's inclusion, but I'd like to see an exception made for these types of situations.
#15 by anonymous
2016-05-19 at 16:09
< report >I'm for remove, it would be quite annoying to allow other genre of games just because they have a VN title somewhere in their series.

Whats next Persona 4 because P4 dancing all night is here.

The better option would be for us all to ask yorhel to get d8 (3.1)
non-VN game relations to VN entries
into a working state.Last modified on 2016-05-19 at 16:18
#16 by kilicool64
2016-05-19 at 17:16
< report >@13 IIUC, the Days series is here because it it has all traits typical of VNs except for those related to presentation. ZTD has actual gameplay, so it's further away from being a VN.
#17 by kiru
2016-05-19 at 17:32
< report >Perhaps. But it's not a novel. That's like the number 1 reason why things aren't here.
Days are interactive movies of sorts. Gameplay should only be relevant if the game in question actually has VN segments. After all what we call "gameplay" is essentially just "not VN segments". Both of these two games however do not have any VN segments at all. So it shouldn't REALLY matter what the rest is.

And that's why both don't belong here, if we stick to the rules. I'm pretty sure this isn't up for discussion, as Days is "officially" considered an exception, nothing else.
And as such arguing for including ZE3 should in theory not be based on Days' existence. However we can argue that exceptions for various reasons do exist and those games are kept. It's not just Days, that's just one easy example. Phoenix Wright as far as I know is also an exception. Doesn't matter what. They exist. And based on that and the fact that ZE3 has two VN prequel and is the final part of a trilogy, I think there's a good enough reason to keep it as another exception.

That all leads to question where you stop with exceptions, but that's why I personally think there shouldn't be any. The guidelines should be exactly followed. If we want something like Days here, we should have actual guidelines for why it's here so similar games can be added as well.Last modified on 2016-05-19 at 17:33
#18 by dk382
2016-05-20 at 01:57
< report >School Days bears enough in common with the VN formula that I don't see a problem with maintaining its exception status. If you want to talk about revamping the entire exceptions system, that's another topic entirely.

ZTD is not even remotely close to being a VN, and is getting removed. That much isn't really up for debate. I definitely support prioritizing d8.3.1, though.
#19 by vario
2016-05-20 at 11:48
< report >Yeah, d8.3.1 should be fine.
#20 by anonymous
2016-05-23 at 06:14
< report >You know, I think it still should be here. People might look at VLR's profile and think that there's not a sequel, since there's not a listed one. I'd agree of removing it if it was a single game, but coming after two VNs that are on this site, it seems like a very bad idea to me to remove it. And still, the actual game isn't too far from being a VN, I'm sure what throws people on saying that it's not the most is the lack of a TextBox, which is pretty dumb. The animations shouldn't just remove the VN status either, so I'd give it a "next level VN", since it's the same formula with innovative concepts.
#21 by PabloC
2016-05-23 at 14:39
< report >@adrylek
No, what makes people say it's not a VN is lack of novel elements combined with the presence of gameplay. You are the only person here who brings up the lack of textbox, and yeah - it's dumb.
The fact something is a sequel doesn't mean anything. Guilty Crown Lost Christmas also has a sequel, and it isn't listed here for exactly the same reason as this one - it's not a VN.

As for School Days, that's the reason why I suggested splitting the inclusion criteria into two sets (one for titles without any gameplay, other for hybrids). A title that sticks to the typical VN formula (without any gameplay other than choices), but uses different presentation (interactive movie), is much more similar to a typical VN than your average VN/game hybrid. So yeah, SD fits our database much more than Rance series for example.
Now, first two titles form the Zero Escape series are included here ONLY because they use typical VN-style writing and presentation (ADV and novel-style narration). Just like Rance series, BlazBlue and all other hybrids. Without such presentation, those wouldn't be "VN hybrids" anymore, just pure games. And we aren't listing games, regardless of their sequels/prequels/spin-offs/fanfics/whatever.Last modified on 2016-05-23 at 14:42
#22 by anonymous
2016-05-24 at 04:26
< report >It still makes zero sense to me. The danganronpa games are counted as VNs when they are much less of a VN than ZTD.
How would you define a VN? It's just a story told by text, which is exactly what ZTD is. There are animations since a simple VN wouldn't sell that well now, but the base is the exact same thing. You can't skip the text, yeah. There aren't sprites but animations, yeah. So? It's the same done slightly different.

And again, even if you wanna say that it's not a VN, I still think that it should be in this site for the people that come here to be informed. There's a bunch of information regarding all the VNs but there's not gonna be a sequel of one just because it's a bit different than the others? That doesn't seem fair to me...
#23 by encrypted12345
2016-05-24 at 04:54
< report >Generally, for this wiki, the make or break point for deciding if a text heavy game qualifies for vndb or not is if it has narration.

Based on the gameplay footage out there, there doesn't seem to be narration, and ZTD seems to be an interactive movie like Heavy Rain. If there are a significant amount of ADV segments with narration in the final product, then there would be no problem with including it in vndb.

There are other wikis out there willing to hold information on ZTD. There's no reason that vndb should be obligated to contain information about ZTD if the website does not want to.
#24 by dk382
2016-05-24 at 07:04
< report >ZTD is a completely different style of game than Danganronpa. The thing is, it's a game where the narrative will be driven by cutscenes, it's as simple as that. There will be subtitles for the speech, okay, fine. That doesn't make Life is Strange a visual novel, and so it won't make this one, either. It's not a text-driven narrative just because there are subtitles in the cutscenes. LTD is simply a different genre from the previous games, and is no longer a VN.

Danganronpa has a text-driven narrative along with plenty of actual descrive narrative text, an absolutely crucial component of our inclusion criteria for hybrid games. We cannot be flexible on this. And we will not add games to the DB just because they're related to the existing ones.Last modified on 2016-05-24 at 07:05
#25 by zentity
2016-05-24 at 14:31
< report >Aren't all visual novels essentially like cinematics if you just have them on auto? I'm sure ZTD will play just like any visual novel, you just won't be clicking through dialogue boxes. Or maybe you will be clicking through the dialogue, just they'll have a variety of panning camera angles rather than a static image.

I feel like it's too early to judge. Maybe ZTD will have loads of narrative text outside of cutscenes, we just don't know yet. Regardless, I think we're still looking at a solid, story driven VN with multiple endings.