Does this still count as a VN?

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#26 by kiru
2016-05-24 at 18:02
@21: You can't argue for School Days like that. It has nothing to do with a VN if we take the whole "narration" stuff as a prerequisite. Just the same as most rpgs and so on.
Why is that important? Because if one argues like you do, any anime needs to be included as well. Also Manga. Also LN. Why? Because what School Days is to a branching VN, any anime ever is to a kinetic VN. Kinetic VNs are simply not interactive VNs, anime are not interactive movies. These two mediums are close. Heck, that's why VNs have been published on BD and Dvd already and I think still get published like this today. Sometimes at least. So if you publish a kinetic VN like this.. where'd the difference to a normal anime on BD be?

I hope you see the problem. It should NOT matter what's different from what we call a VN. Or how it's different. If it's different, it's not counting.Last modified on 2016-05-24 at 18:04
#27 by pabloc
2016-05-24 at 20:08
It has nothing to do with a VN if we take the whole "narration" stuff as a prerequisite.
Read the updated guidelines. "Narration stuff" is only essential for titles with gameplay. So it's necessary in "RPGs and so on", but it isn't strictly required in School Days.

As for your claim that if we include School Days (interactive program with VN-like engine, VN-like choices, and VN-like storytelling, but without typical ADV/NVL presentation) as an EXCEPTION, then we also should include anime (not programs, just plain videos without ANY VN-like features whatsoever), manga (not programs, just plain images without ANY VN-like features whatsoever) or LNs (not programs, just plain text without ANY VN-like features whatsoever) - that's pure nonsense. No, what School Days is to a branching VN, is NOT what any anime is to a kinetic VN. SD, branching VNs and kinetic novels are from a completely different group of media than anime/movies.

So if you publish a kinetic VN like this.. where'd the difference to a normal anime on BD be?
Umm... everywhere?
VNs published on BD/DVD are still VNs. They retain their presentation, some functions (like save/load function, in the form of awkward codes - at least in Hirameki's abominations), and pretty much everything that makes them VNs. They're only using different "engine", that's all. All differences between anime and VNs are still there, contents are the same regardless of the distribution method.
#28 by kiru
2016-05-24 at 20:59
So, as long as you press an "exe" to play a video it'd count as a VN? I really don't see that.

School Days is an interactive movie. I don't think anybody argues against that. That means it's a movie first and foremost. Counting that as a VN means you count movies as VNs, as the "interactive" is not required for a VN. The rest is simple derivation.

If the only way around it is arguing via "exe" and "engine", you know it's bad. Because, again, "VN-like choices" don't matter and "VN-like storytelling" is not in School Days. Or at least not any more than it is in anime. Provided I'm not forgetting something.
edit: Cases like School Days are rare of course. Which is why I don't particularly care and think you can leave it because it's an INTERACTIVE anime. But saying it's close to VNs? I don't think so. Not any closer as a normal anime is to a kinetic novel.Last modified on 2016-05-24 at 21:01
#29 by pabloc
2016-05-25 at 14:33
School Days is an interactive movie.
Yes.
That means it's a movie first and foremost.
No. It means it's an "interactive movie". Not just "interactive", not just "movie".
Following your "logic", you could also say that VNs are "novels" first and foremost, and then we should count books as well. Because books also have the "novel" part (and sometimes they even have pictures).

"VN-like choices" don't matter
WHY? They do matter. Every single aspect matters. If SD didn't have any VN-like technical features ("exe", engine, save/load function, flags and so on), VN-like storytelling with VN-style choices that branch the plot into alternative, VN-like routes, and that sticks to protagonist's POV - THEN you could say that if we are including it, we should count movies as well.Last modified on 2016-05-25 at 14:35
#30 by palas
2016-05-25 at 15:36
oh god not again
#31 by adrylek
2016-05-25 at 16:16
Why do you care that much man? Why do you have to be so strict? Even if it doesn't meet all your VN standards, it's the closest you'll get to it. Is it gonna be bad for the site if it gets added? Is someone gonna be bothered by it? Of course not, it will only help people.

I think it's not fair at all to exclude it from here just because in your opinion, it's slightly different than most VNs and this is a 100% VN site. That just seems dumb and not smart at all to me if I think it from your perspective. It's just gonna be confusing for the people that get to here and see that VLR doesn't have a sequel, plus, no matter what you say, it's still a Visual Novel. With puzzles, yes. With animated scenes, yes. Does that change anything? No, of course not.
The "there's no narrator" excuse is completely bullshit. Just imagine a normal VN that only has dialogue. Everyone would still call it a VN, you included. It seems that you're being stubborn for absolutely no reason, and as users, everyone would rather having it since it's not bad for the site or for anything in any way.

Last time you said "well there are more websites that will cover everything zero escape related so people will know that VLR has a sequel", and honestly, with all my respect, that might be the dumbest mindset I've ever seen. "We are not gonna include this in our webiste for no reason, go look it up in another one". It's going way too far just because it's an innovative VN...Last modified on 2016-05-25 at 16:20
#32 by kilicool64
2016-05-25 at 17:30
The narration requirement only applies to hybrids. It's okay for a pure VN not to have any, but if VNDB were to allow titles that have gameplay, but lack any kind of narration during the story sections, that would cause a lot of obvious non-VNs to be added.

On a side note, Uchikoshi just mentioned on Twitter that ZTD will have a backlog and allow pausing the action at any time, which I guess puts in -slightly- closer towards VN territory, but I still don't think it should be considered one.
#33 by [deleted]
2016-05-25 at 17:40
I think it's not fair at all to exclude it from here just because in your opinion, it's slightly different than most VNs and this is a 100% VN site
well its not just his opinion this thread was open to all users and some posters were fine with its removal. This is not a 100% VN site the inclusion rules were recently adjusted so that Hybrids had a better chance to be included (that caused a shitstorm thread that dwarfs complaints in this thread).

The "there's no narrator" excuse is completely bullshit
:sarcasm: The this doesn't need a narrator/narration excuse is completely bull

It seems that you're being stubborn for absolutely no reason, and as users, everyone would rather having it since it's not bad for the site or for anything in any way.
So your speaking for all users thinking they all agree with you huh......
Hes being stubborn because the game your trying to call a VN doesn't meet his or other users definition of a VN so there are users not part of this everyone you speak of/for.

oh god not again
Oh yes again,
just ride the storm out nothing will change as VNDB is too split on this matter some argue for absolute strict rules, others argue for light rules and the staff decision to meet in the middle leaves both sides at each others throat.Last modified on 2016-05-25 at 17:41
#34 by dk382
2016-05-25 at 19:09
@31: You can keep calling it a VN all you want but every single bit of it I see makes it look like a regular adventure game to me with the only VN-like element at all being the backlog. Literally nothing else about it makes it a VN. What other VN-like elements do you see? It's not text based, there's no VN-like interface, there's no narration, there's nothing in my eyes.

The problem is, if we accept ZTD, we'd have to accept all manner of other adventure games, because it now has much more in common with that genre than VNs.

We are eventually going to add non-VN game relations to the database. This feature is still awhile away, but it's planned. Just hold out until then.Last modified on 2016-05-25 at 19:24
#35 by pabloc
2016-05-25 at 22:41
Even if it doesn't meet all your VN standards
Correction - it doesn't meet ANY VN standards.
Is it gonna be bad for the site if it gets added? Is someone gonna be bothered by it? Of course not, it will only help people.
Yeah, it would be 10x more "helpful" than Phoenix Wright. What could possibly go wrong? >_>
I think it's not fair at all to exclude it from here just because in your opinion, it's slightly different than most VNs and this is a 100% VN site. That just seems dumb and not smart at all to me if I think it from your perspective. It's just gonna be confusing for the people that get to here and see that VLR doesn't have a sequel, plus, no matter what you say, it's still a Visual Novel.
I think it would be unfair to include it, just because in your opinion it's a VN, even though, no matter what you say, it has absolutely nothing to do with VNs.
as users, everyone would rather having it since it's not bad for the site or for anything in any way.
I'm a user, and I don't want VNDB to turn into "Random things database". This title would be inevitably followed by The Last of Us, Heavy Rain, every single TellTale title, then random adventure games - because it looks exactly like those. That would turn the only English database for VNs into a useless, cluttered mess.
#36 by tsungdere
2016-05-25 at 23:24
Allow me to throw in a question here when the topic is still hot. Does link, and the rest of the series, count as a VN? It's an interactive movie with no text or dialog boxes at all except for audios.
Well, I played the first entry a while back and it definitely didn't seem like a VN to me, but then I might not know what a VN is after all.
#37 by dk382
2016-05-26 at 00:55
I know literally nothing about that series but based on the descriptions, my gut instinct says that they do not belong here, and neither do the similar games made by the same company.Last modified on 2016-05-26 at 00:55
#38 by palas
2016-05-26 at 02:31
Right, so

1. There is a utilitarian reason to keep it

It's the third game in a series. It's not a spin-off, it's not a complete overhaul, it's just the developers changing strategies in order to do what they always did. Having it here helps the people who follow the series, it helps the database tracking its history even if you need to put an asterisk on the entry, it simply helps everyone, whereas nothaving it here helps a total number of zero people.

2. Maybe this is what visual novels will become more like

That its the third installment in a series but being a reboot of any sort is also important, because the changes also might (as much as they might not) indicate changes that the very format might be undergoing in order to adjust to a new market or the times or whatever. It would be fine to stop where we are and say "this is no longer a visual novel, visual novels are no more, thank you for the good times" and keep only the holy canon of VNs here, except

3. You don't even know what you're protecting

This isn't the Dogma 95 Movie Database. Guidelines are constantly changing and a game doesn't even have to meet all of them. And that's fine, that's excellent - thankfully no one has ever bothered to figure out what a visual novel is a priori. What I don't get is what exactly would be kept from harm by keeping games with an obvious cultural relationship to the genre away... much like most entries from the 80's here.

Besides the dread of the slippery slope and the Invisible Enemy of Unrelated Games That Might Ofuscate Actual VNs simply isn't happening, now is it? It won't become database of random things, and in fact I'd prefer that over Pabloc's Database of VNs Because He Gets Oh So Confused If He Has to Do Anything Other Than Reading When Playing VNs
#39 by dk382
2016-05-26 at 03:20
1. There is a utilitarian reason to keep it
I agree. I hope Yorhel is able to get around to whittling down the todo list for development so he can add non-VN relations to the database soon, but apparently it will take quite some time. In the meantime, we will not add super obvious non-VNs to the database. The usefulness of keeping it does not outweigh the fact that it simply is not a VN in any stretch of the definition and does not belong here.

2. Maybe this is what visual novels will become more like
No. "Visual Novel" isn't going to become anything. VNs are already defined. That definition is admittedly somewhat fuzzy but it's never going to change into something completely different. Maybe, eventually people will stop making VNs and start making other kinds of games instead, that doesn't mean that the definition of what a VN is will change, nor will that change the types of games this site chronicles, unless we want to turn into the "otaku games database" or something if VNs die completely.

3. You don't even know what you're protecting
I mean, I think it's pretty cut and dry? This site is about visual novels. Adding in non-VNs just for convenience sake is something that's very dangerous and should be avoided at all costs. I'm usually not a fan of slippery slope arguments but in general, if we include something just for relation purposes, that will open the DB to all sorts of garbage getting added. I wouldn't be opposed to this if we had some way to designate these as non-VNs. Yorhel's current plan is to link to outside databases for related non-VNs. Perhaps an easier way to do it would be to have the games still in our database but have a flag that designates them as non-VNs, making it super obvious to anyone who looks at the entry? And require any game that has that flag to be linked to a VN without it. I don't know. Either way, I'm against including non-VNs in the database until this feature is implemented.
#40 by pabloc
2016-05-26 at 08:47
@Palas
1. There is a utilitarian reason to keep it
Should we add Guilty Crown manga then? It's a sequel of a regular VN (v7402), just like this game. Why shouldn't we include it as well, for utilitarian purposes? And while we are at it, why not add Hanakanmuri Circle? It's a very cute platform game, and having it here would help everyone, because I say so. It's just as not-a-VN as this title, so if we include one, we should add the other. What would be your argument against something like that?
2. Maybe this is what visual novels will become more like
So, a silent movie database should also include modern movies with voiced dialogues? Just because silent movies evolved into those?
Besides the dread of the slippery slope and the Invisible Enemy of Unrelated Games That Might Ofuscate Actual VNs simply isn't happening, now is it?
Yeah, I don't remember Phoenix Wright encouraging people to add blatant non-VN adventure games to the database. Not at all. /sarcasm
#41 by schiffy
2016-06-30 at 16:36
Well it's pretty damn funny that this "decision" was made a month before the game was even out. Now that it's actually released, it should be pretty obvious that it isn't actually that different from the previous two titles. Much like the other two Zero Escape games, there's text, and there's choices. The text auto advances and there's some weird camera angles, but so what? How does that not make it a VN? It's almost identical to the second game in format, in terms of a flowchart and the constant jumping around said chart. The only major difference is the fact that there's cinematics and not sprites? That's a pretty ridiculous deciding factor, if you ask me.
#42 by ginseigou
2016-06-30 at 18:00
The vndb already has lots of old adventure games that don't count to be vns by the self-made definition and very controversial hybrids. There's nothing wrong to add just a couple of new similar games.
Let's not forget that in Japan only NVL games are considered to be visual novels while games in other text formats are called adventures.Last modified on 2016-06-30 at 23:58
#43 by freytheronin
2016-06-30 at 19:14
Please undelete this page... The game is basically identical to its prequel in its format, and leaving the final part of a trilogy is confusing and inconsistent.Last modified on 2016-06-30 at 19:15
#44 by [deleted]
2016-06-30 at 20:59
Its an **adventure game** not a VN, that should be clear to anyone once those point & click room movement and mini-games start, and if Kyokugen Dasshutsu ADV Zennin Shibou Desu is truly just like this one i question whether it should be here.

This game would fail VNDB's hybrid rules anyways, at least after the first 3 hours or so i don't see it accomplishing getting over the bar. It would have to drastically change the way it tells the story and i don't see that happening.Last modified on 2016-07-01 at 11:12
#45 by eacil
2016-06-30 at 21:19
Its an adventure game not a VN
Another quote of the year.
#46 by [deleted]
2016-06-30 at 21:28
Another quote of the year.
wait is there more then 1 in the running atm for QotY, darn i wanted the achievement points. Or is it like a shared quotes of the year were they are all treated equally.Last modified on 2016-06-30 at 22:49
#47 by kiru
2016-07-01 at 09:35
What kind of adventure game?

Japanese? Yes. But so are all VNs.

Western? No. Point and click doesn't make a western adventure game. They feature a rather different approach to story-telling.

I still dunno about this one, but one thing's for sure: 999 and VLR do belong here. More plot than gameplay, narration and everything. (although not much narration, but that doesn't matter.)


That said, if this new one cut out the narration, then by current vndb standards: Can't be added. It's inconsistent with other present games and whatnot, but those should be removed, and not more "rule violating" games added. Or you should question the rules itself I guess. If it feels so much like a typical VN (I can't say), maybe the rules are just bad.
#48 by [deleted]
2016-07-01 at 10:49
Calling it a adventure game was probably wrong on my part its just what I've always seen games like telltale's the walking dead called and that's what this plays and feels like to me.
#49 by aecheritt
2017-06-19 at 17:38
Sorry for the late reply, but it definitely got its place here. First of all, as a sequel of a series, and secondly, if Emily is Away has its place here, THIS TOO.
#50 by kilicool64
2017-06-19 at 18:19
*Sigh* We've already explained why the whole "it's part of a series containing VNs" thing isn't a valid argument, so I won't even bother addressing that.

And how exactly does a title like Emily is Away whose presentation doesn't resemble ZTD's in the slightest prove that the latter is also a VN?

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