Thoughts about vn in general (MAJOR SPOILERS)

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#1 by kei-tr
2016-05-14 at 13:24
What the... hell did I just read?!? I mean wh- what...... whaaaaat?!? My brain fried then melted then even evaporated. I don't even know to where I should start. But this is most complicated, ambiguous, incomprehensible, preposterous thing I have read in my life. Also, is Beatrice really exists? I mean this story only could come from her hands because story is mocking, toying and even torturing you over and over and over again which I can imagine she will enjoy that immensely. I am a little mind broken and utterly frustrated and irritated and feeling cheated at the moment.

Well, don't get me wrong. I really liked story. 9/10 maybe even 9.5/10. Story, voices, musics all was either top notch or very close to top notch. But... IT DOESN'T EXPLAIN EVEN A SINGLE THING! YOU CAN'T BE SURE FROM EVEN A SINGLE THING! Even red! It can be wordplay or misdirection or something. All it does shoving your face mysteries and questions one after another. What kind of mystery novel doesn't explains anything at the end? I mean leaving a few things about story for interpretation is one thing (which I don't even like that) asking reader about writing their own theories by using almost impossible to find clues (unless you did read solutions/theories online and/or you did read story multiple times) left around is another. I just wanted to enjoy reading while story revealed truth to me bit by bit. Of course it doesn't mean I didn't try to solve mysteries. It's like having an exam (having an exam that you didn't even know from what subject you are going to asked): I did enter an exam , answered questions but result are never revealed. I neither know my results nor where did I make my mistakes.

At first I believed it's a proper mystery. Later, beginning with episode 2 I thought its fantasy. Then when Virgilia explained cat box at early episode 3 and I thought mystery and fantasy coexisting at the moment but it’s unknown which one true for now. With episode 5 it becomes multiple mystery theories coexisting together rather than mystery and fantasy but of course neither of them true. An at last with episode 8 Battler straight out says real truth isn't important, the thing really important your own truth (ironically they are fighting nonstop with goats that created their own truths).

But from very start of episode 2 until episode 8 I did thought one thing. Fragments are actually parallel universes and story's purpose is reaching or creating a fragment that everyone (or at least Ange's family) turns home alive. This also means I believed each game world is a reality albeit obscured by illusions and/or unreliable narrator. But then with episode 8 existence of book of single truth revealed which means there is only one truth. This is also means all previous games are not realities but they are just possibilities or stories. This also means deaths are set in stone now. There is no miracle waiting a 6 years old Ange because there is only one Ange (this also makes Lions existence is a lie). Of course surprisingly (!) we don't get to learn contents of book of single truth either (though I’ll admit I hoped we will learn at least something for sure until last moment and we didn’t, which further increased my disappointment and frustration).

And top of all of this there is that ending (I'm talking abut second tea party of episode 8). Worst kind of ending in my opinion. I call this kind of endings is "sugarcoated" endings. These endings actually really sad/unhappy or bad endings but presented reader with purpose of they are actually happyish endings. Example: protagonist loses girl he loves but after an appropriate music, a few "meaningful" lines and maybe an emotional scene he puts this his behind looks forward to future with hope. Umineko's ending is similar. Ange loses literally everything. And after they spend their lives apart from each other she reunites with his brother after god knows how many decades (and it seems she didn't has much longer to live since she is cancer). Then we learn his brother actually can't see himself as Battler (is there really a condition like his exist?) an thus Ange as his sister. I mean come on just kill him at 1986 already and it will be million times better. What kind torture is this? And this presented us in a way as I described above, like it's not that unhappy -look Battler actually lives-. And as a final touch everyone greets Battler at final scene as vn mocking you until last second asking you is this real or magic or illusion or Battler died at the moment he entered room and his soul gone to "golden land"?

Sorry I really had to let some steam off which I don't usually do. I really tempted for a moment giving this a really low score but even after all this it doesn't change the fact this is great story and lowering score too much would be injustice.Last modified on 2016-05-14 at 13:53
#2 by gabezhul
2016-05-14 at 13:35
For the record, I have a series of threads explaining the individual mysteries of each episode as they come, so if you are curious, check them out.

As for the conclusion, yeah, it's pretty bleak. The real events went something like this: Family reunion at Rokkenjima, Yasu plans to kill everyone, her plans get tangled by Kyrie and Rudolph, everyone dies except Eva and Ange (and Battler loses his memories, so technically he is dead too), Ange grows up under Eva, Eva dies, Ange has to run from the people who want her inheritance, she tries to figure out the truth but it is too heavy for her to bear and she either commits suicide or retreats into her own fantasies.

*Everything else* is just fiction within the story, and even parts of what we see from Ange's perspective are fictionalized. No magic, no parallel worlds, no witches, no nothing. Only lots and lots of death and ugly people. Kind of depressing, but I think the journey in this case was more important than the destination.
#3 by kei-tr
2016-05-14 at 14:21
Yes I already did read them beforehand so I shouldn't make any blunders when I posting a comment.

But they don't change the fact:

1) Even though they are probably right answers they are not absolutely true.
2) They don't change the fact story doesn't explain anything and my cluelessness and frustration while I reading it.

Still they sated my curiosity and eased my frustration quite a bit thanks to your efforts and hard work. In fact I probably did find a big mistake about one of them and I am going to hit you where you least expect in a few hours.
#4 by danpmss
2016-05-29 at 16:06
#1 and #3

Umineko has everything explained implicitly. You just need to re-read those 160+ hours all over again (I guarantee you that it will be like reading a completely different VN in a sense).

The foreshadowing, explanations and even symbolisms are all there, if you try hard enough to find them by yourself (that's the whole point of the VN as a legit mystery).

If you don't want to do that however, feel free to go read EP7 and EP8 manga versions, which contains all of the answers explicitly explained (ruins the experience in my opinion, but well).


User gabezhul explanations are pretty much on point with the extra "explicit tips" the author gave us in materials outside the VNs (like "Our Confession" or the interview book).

Since these are confirmed by the author, I can only say you should try reading it again with the knowledge you have right now (took me 3 re-reading sessions to get the whole thing, only reading the manga to confirm all the stuff).

"Confession of the Golden Witch" is an exclusive story in the manga that is basically the materialization of all plot points regarding Yasu in the VN (metaphorically speaking -EP1 to EP6- and concretely speaking -EP7-), btw. Not obligatory to understand the story as a whole, but it is a quite amazing addition in my opinion.

Welcome to Umineko, the longest (text quantity-wise) most cruel (to the reader) and complex (I could spend a whole day explaining why) VN you will find here. A gigantic masterpiece of pure madness that only make sense if you basically study the whole thing.

One could deduct one whole point for it being such a pain in the ass to read and understand.Last modified on 2016-05-29 at 16:08
#5 by gabezhul
2016-05-29 at 16:22
One could deduct one whole point for it being such a pain in the ass to read and understand.
Heh. Believe it or not, I did just that. I have both VNs at 9 exactly because how much of a pain in the ass they are to untangle (plus due to a couple of boring stretches in EP 2-3 and 8). Otherwise they are probably the best written stories in the DB from an analytical standpoint, though not necessarily the most fun or straightforward on a casual read, and I would say it is the only work of fiction where I actually agree with the literary analysis, since it is *written into the actual story.*.
#6 by usagi
2016-05-29 at 17:51
And I wonder why there is zero hype about Higanbana and/or Rose Guns Days? Are they so much worse?
I will definitely try to read them later but now I think previous Ryukishi titles were too high-calorie for me(to such extent that I just don't want to read anything new from him despite being in pure rapture from his first novels).. maybe not only for me? Is it the reason why there are so few people who actially read next titles and want to discuss them?
Afaik they are not mysteries - it is possible reason for fans disappointment.. on other hand it is a plus for those who was aversed by overly complex plot. Also it is interesting to know can in his last works one see author's growth as a writer or regress (alas, there are many examples of the last in modern literature world).Last modified on 2016-05-29 at 18:00
#7 by kei-tr
2016-05-29 at 17:53
@4

Umineko has everything explained implicitly. You just need to re-read those 160+ hours all over again (I guarantee you that it will be like reading a completely different VN in a sense).

You really need to check the meaning word of "implicit". If it is really "implicit" you will not need to do this.

Uminoko is like this: You are going to a book store wanting to buy a book and you see an interesting, thick book. Clerk approaches you and says " You have to read multiple times to understand that story and also" he hands you some booklets, magazines and a series of comic books "you also should read these to understand completely that book".
I didn't heard a story like this in my life but maybe I am only person finding this weird. Sad thing is there wasn't any clerk there, warning me before I began reading. But then again if you ask me did I regret reading this or not, no probably not. As I said at my first post, even tough its torturing reader I still find this as very good story but in my opinion (as I said, my opinion, so don't criticize me on this) it could be best thing here if it was proper story explained things "implicitly" bit by bit as story progress and leaving very little to no need for reading it multiple times or other outer products.

Welcome to Umineko, the longest (text quantity-wise) most cruel (to the reader) and complex (I could spend a whole day explaining why) VN you will find here. A gigantic masterpiece of pure madness that only make sense if you basically study the whole thing.

I couldn't agree with you more. But the thing is I didn't want to prepare a doctorate thesis about it I just wanted to enjoy reading proper story.Last modified on 2016-05-29 at 18:02
#8 by danpmss
2016-05-29 at 22:31
#7
You really need to check the meaning word of "implicit". If it is really "implicit" you will not need to do this.

Uminoko is like this: You are going to a book store wanting to buy a book and you see an interesting, thick book. Clerk approaches you and says " You have to read multiple times to understand that story and also" he hands you some booklets, magazines and a series of comic books "you also should read these to understand completely that book".
I didn't heard a story like this in my life but maybe I am only person finding this weird. Sad thing is there wasn't any clerk there, warning me before I began reading. But then again if you ask me did I regret reading this or not, no probably not. As I said at my first post, even tough its torturing reader I still find this as very good story but in my opinion (as I said, my opinion, so don't criticize me on this) it could be best thing here if it was proper story explained things "implicitly" bit by bit as story progress and leaving very little to no need for reading it multiple times or other outer products.

Let's say that, by definition:

Implicit - They give you the info indirectly. Foreshadowings are not always called back, or if they are, it is in a very cryptic fashion. Might apply to all the other plot devices and elements, especially the narrative (the Visual Novel).

Explicit - They give you the info directly. They will go full analytical into every single element of the story presented up to that point and will directly give you the answer by using them (the manga version of EP7 and 8).

Sorry if it sounded ambiguous in my other comment somehow.

It is exactly as I said, though.

Besides giving you A LOT of tips, that explain the entirety of the story without many problems, they will never do so helping the reader (Ryukishi is a complete troll in that sense, and actually many people in the fanbase love him exactly because of that), since the author already stated publicly that he consider Umineko as a meta game of mystery between the readers and himself (so far to input yet another layer in the collective unconscious the VN is so famous for, that would be our real world).

But concluding, it is not necessary to read any material other than the VN to understand the story, it's just that many find to be much easier that way (and IT IS, believe me, it freaking IS).

This image can help a bit to explain that part:
[img]link[/img]

I couldn't agree with you more. But the thing is I didn't want to prepare a doctorate thesis about it I just wanted to enjoy reading proper story.

You are not to blame. The fact 90% of the fanbase flipped the table before Chiru even finished is enough to prove the absurd reading anyone need to do in order understand this Behemoth virtual book lol

Umineko can be an extraordinary work of art all day, but it will never be a quite enjoyable experience for most people in the world at all (in fact, it's more like a very frustrating one instead).

As for me, since mystery is my favorite genre since forever, I consider myself to be a minor exception in that matter (even if I myself say that it's undeniable that I got extremely frustrated with the complexity, in many instances).Last modified on 2016-05-29 at 22:37
#9 by danpmss
2016-05-29 at 22:49
#6
And I wonder why there is zero hype about Higanbana and/or Rose Guns Days? Are they so much worse?
I will definitely try to read them later but now I think previous Ryukishi titles were too high-calorie for me(to such extent that I just don't want to read anything new from him despite being in pure rapture from his first novels).. maybe not only for me? Is it the reason why there are so few people who actially read next titles and want to discuss them?
Afaik they are not mysteries - it is possible reason for fans disappointment.. on other hand it is a plus for those who was aversed by overly complex plot. Also it is interesting to know can in his last works one see author's growth as a writer or regress (alas, there are many examples of the last in modern literature world).

I would say Higanbana and Rose Guns Days are completely different animals if compared to When They Cry, Iwaihime or Ookami Kakushi (mystery works from Ryukishi).

More than anything, Higanbana is basically a horror social commentary on the bullying happening in Japan, that is driving many students into suicide at young age, while Rose Guns Days is more of an adventure-esque sociopolitical commentary about post-WW2 Japan (highly inspired by "The Third Man", which is this, but in post-WW2 Italy).

Both are really nice works in my opinion, but, since people are expecting more psychological mystery from him, they just don't really care about these (fandom is expecting a different genre to be hyped for).Last modified on 2016-05-29 at 22:56
#10 by kei-tr
2016-05-29 at 23:01
Lol, sorry it seems I am the person mistaken meaning of implicit. At the moment I thought its meaning similar to explicit. Sorry again.
#11 by dreamysyu
2016-05-30 at 18:57
This is pretty much what Umineko is. So, yeah, you can say Umineko is even pretty easy to understand. At least it doesn't expect you to know Medieval literature and stuff.
#12 by danpmss
2016-05-31 at 16:28
#11
Umineko is by no means easy to understand, if you analyse it from the "Genius Bonus" part of the story haha

As someone who studied everything Carl Jung-related (all those 18 infodumping books + some of his supplementary material), I must say Ryukishi himself probably studied a fair share of said content (at least 7 of the books, in my opinion) before writing Umineko's collective unconscious (meta world) and his characters living within it.

Either that, or Ryukishi is pratically a god-like genius for doing anything similar to these studies alone, what I find to be highly unlikely (even though one could point out that he could get part of this content without studying... but that's a whole other topic also included in Jung's studies).

Here's a list of said works (if you need any elaboration, prepare yourself for some severe info-dumps from me, but it's likely you will find the answers just by reading the title-theme and chapters of each tome):

*Ryukishi most likely studied some things from this title and applied them to the story and characters
**Almost certainly a mere coincidence, since the related content is such a minor part of the tome

Volume 1 – Psychiatric Studies (1970)
Volume 2 – Experimental Researches (1973)
Volume 3 – Psychogenesis of Mental Disease (1960) **
Volume 4 – Freud & Psychoanalysis (1961) **
Volume 5 – Symbols of Transformation (1967, a revision of Psychology of the Unconscious, 1912) *
Volume 6 – Psychological Types (1971)*
Volume 7 – Two Essays on Analytical Psychology (1967)*
Volume 8 – Structure & Dynamics of the Psyche (1969)*
Volume 9 (Part 1) – Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious (1969) *
Volume 9 (Part 2) – Aion: Researches into the Phenomenology of the Self (1969) **
Volume 10 – Civilization in Transition (1970)
Volume 11 – Psychology and Religion: West and East (1970) *
Volume 12 – Psychology and Alchemy (1968)
Volume 13 – Alchemical Studies (1968)
Volume 14 – Mysterium Coniunctionis (1970)
Volume 15 – Spirit in Man, Art, and Literature (1966)**
Volume 16 – Practice of Psychotherapy (1966)
Volume 17 – Development of Personality (1954) *
Volume 18 – The Symbolic Life (1977)**
#13 by dreamysyu
2016-05-31 at 20:15
^Wow, looks pretty massive. Actually, I wanted to read something about psychology in the near future, and some of those names look pretty interesting, so thanks for the reference!

Anyway, I probably a little oversimplified what I wanted to say. I mean, Umineko is mostly a self-consistent work. It explains most of concepts and rules it's using, even if it doesn't always go in depth. If you are knowledgeable in a certain field heavily used in the work, you will get a lot of extra understanding (and, probably, enjoyment if it's done right), but it is not completely necessary to:
1) solve the mystery;
2) understand the story structure (with multiple layers of the narrative and meta, though you might not understand what exactly those layers represent);
3) get the general enjoyment from reading.
I oppose it to works where you actually have to be highly knowledgeable in something to understand ANYTHING in the plot. I don't think I personally read something like that before, but I heard from a person I personally know and respect that some of the PoMo titles are exactly like that. I think, she mentioned "Foucault's Pendulum" by Umberto Eco as an example.

Also, the main meaning of my post was to show that there is nothing wrong with a story not giving directs answer to questions it arises since some other works go even further. Sorry if I created a misunderstanding.
#14 by danpmss
2016-05-31 at 21:01
#13
I got your point, and you are completely right about that xD

The thing is, iirc genius bonus are actually just a bonus for the people who understand a bit more of info in that area, that could be constantly heavily hinted or at least briefly mentioned by the author at some point. In that case, exactly as you said, there's no need to know all those things to understand the work at all haha

Steins;Gate doesn't have a genius bonus since they explained the whole genius part themselves as a part of the whole content, for example (the same goes for all the amazing works from Uchikoshi in this database).

No misunderstandings in here, so don't worry!Last modified on 2016-05-31 at 21:03
#15 by iwasawa
2016-05-31 at 21:52
Really, there's no need to worry since Umineko has nothing to do with Jung nor it needs any external knowledge to understand what Ryukishi07 want to be understood.
#16 by danpmss
2016-05-31 at 22:56
Oh, Umineko has a lot of things to do with Jung (the whole layered meta-world is built just like the collective unconscious, and it works in such a similar way it's impossible not to call it a collective unconscious per se).

He sure didn't mention anything about it directly, that's one thing, since it wasn't really necessary (Genius Bonus, definition above) to go any further on that topic at all (and Ryukishi was probably much more concerned about analysing, deconstructing and reconstructing the Mystery genre as a whole, one of the actual main points of the VN), but it's pretty much apparent he based his concepts on it together with his own ideas (Fate / Stay Night also gets a portion of Jung in its elements, including the whole "Alaya" thing, but in a different fashion).

Let's make a more nerdy example to exemplify things in Umineko:

Imagine that the meta world in the VN is Mayonaka TV from Persona 4 (yet another Jungian-related work).

There we have the multiple Personas of each character in the series, as well as their Shadows (We can go with Genji=Ronove, Kumasawa=Virgilia, Yasu=Beatrice, Ryukishi's alter ego= Ikkuko, Willard Wright's alter ego=Van Dine/Philo Vance (deconstructed), Knox's child (metaphorically, his decalogue)=Dlanor (equally deconstructed), etc... the list goes on and on).

And that's only some of the characteristics they have in common (major ones, for a fact, in Umineko).

Now, if we go with Episodes 2, 3 and 7, I can give you some very explicit examples of the 5th, 8th, 9th and 11th books from Jung as a comparative matter to the plot points, symbolisms and character analysis in the VN.

Umineko as a whole, especially in its theatrical presentation during Episode 7 is one of a kind of literary work mentioned in volume 15 of this collection (chapter "Psychology and literature", pages 84 to 105).

You probably never studied one bit of Jung if you actually affirm that Umineko has nothing to do with his works, and probably only because his name wasn't mentioned in the work, being honest (and I'm willing of providing sources as evidence, as I stated above).Last modified on 2016-05-31 at 23:14
#17 by iwasawa
2016-06-01 at 00:15
I studied psychology for a while, both academically and on my own, that's why I'm telling you you're just a... heated fan trying to embellish things. If you had actualy bothered to read about the concepts you're talking about for example, you would have found out that the persona is a pre-individuation self defence mechanism while the shadow an axpect of the personality unkown to the conscious ego. Ronove & co are neither, it's you linking those alter egos to Jung's work.

Your partial stance concerning Ryukishi07 is also evident in your answer to @6; people ignore what came after Umineko not because of genres, but because Ryukishi as an author dug his grave with Chiru. He lost a big chunk of his fanbase and the spotlight with it.Last modified on 2016-06-01 at 01:23
#18 by danpmss
2016-06-01 at 01:56
#17

I studied psycology for a while, both academically and on my own, that's why I'm telling you you're just a... heated fan trying to embellish things.

Oh really? Because I am graduated in Psychology at Sapienza (University of Rome). That's really interesting to hear, because it means I can actually go deeper without simplifying too much stuff.

Well, if you need any evidence, go and try me to exemplify even more stuff for you.

About the things I already did presented however:


If you had actualy bothered to read about the concepts you're talking about for example, you would have found out that the persona is a pre-individuation self defence mechanism while the shadow an axpect of the personality unkown to the conscious ego. Ronove & co are neither, it's you linking those alter egos to Jung's work.

Let's pick this from the very beggining then, starting from the definition of Persona and Shadow.

According to his own words on the 7th book of the collection, Jung explicit said:
"Persona is a kind of mask, designed on the one hand to make a definite impression upon others, and on the other to conceal the true nature of the individual"

If you actually understood Umineko (of course you didn't, otherwise I wouldn't have to explain this), you would notice that Kanon and Shanon are Personas of Yasu trying to hide her Self (the central of her total personality) and live and interact as an another person. He/She has an identity crysis because of him/her damaged sexual organs after being thrown from the cliff by Natsuhi.

Both Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo to an extent tried to hide the truth from him/her, until he/she became the sucessor of the Ushiromiya by solving the Epitaph.

Nanjo only did what he could in the operation, while Genji and Kumasawa created themselves personas to interact with Yasu (those being Virgilia and Ronove, represented in the collective unconscious, only place where all the persona and shadows can exist and properly be represented, since they are nothing but social masks in our real world, as said in volume 9).

Yasu has Beatrice as a Shadow, or as Jung would say (also from volume 9), "...the shadow, that hidden, repressed, for the most part inferior and guilt-laden personality whose ultimate ramifications reach back into the realm of our animal ancestors and so comprise the whole historical aspect of the unconscious."

And complementing, with an obvious representation in Umineko, as Yasu talks with Beatrice, or "interacts" with her through her own ego (the center of her consciousness), or with any of her masks (from the same page of the same volume), "When we observe them in full operation — as the devastating, blindly obstinate demon of opinionatedness in a woman, and the glamorous, possessive, moody, and sentimental seductress in a man— we begin to doubt whether the unconscious can be merely the insubstantial comet’s tail of consciousness and nothing but a privation of light and good."

This is due to Beatrice being a repressed existence in Yasu's unconscious, that she however can't abandon for obvious reasons (the conflict in her/his Anima/Animus is shown and represented very explicitly through the story). There's a point where she actually had Beatrice as being a kind of imaginary friend, which lately she incorporates as a part of her Self in form of a new Persona, only to abandon it completely and try to live WITHOUT ANY CONSCIOUS OF IT (not that it is that simple), transforming Beatrice into the thing she don't want to identify herself as.

Beatrice, in other words, is not really a shadow, but a rejected persona (since her ego is conscious of it). Confusing enough, the only real shadow in the whole series is Bernkastel, from Rika, that is from Higurashi.

As for the other examples, Willard and Knox cases are far more deconstructed, involving some other classification of an Alter-Ego (which would be related to roleplaying, instead of being a similar definition to a Shadow, by the words of Freud), like a Rakugo comedian of a sort, for example. This can also be applied in a VERY meta example by Ryukishi, assuming the alter ego of Ikkuko in his own work, and giving it a similar direction in the reality.

Your partial stance concerning Ryukishi07 is also evident in your answer to @6; people ignore what came after Umineko not because of genres, but because Ryukishi as an author dug his grave with Chiru. He lost a big chunk of his fanbase and the spotlight with it.

Are you paying attention? I admire a lot Ryukishi's works, but literally critized the whole thing some lines above for being excessively complicated to the point of frustration even for the biggest lovers of the genre lol

Umineko is not for everyone, especially for people like you, who probably didn't even understood the story at all and didn't even tried to.

Go back studying more Psychology, since you need, and give Umineko a second read before talking shit.

PS:
The fanbase that abandoned it didn't get the story at first, and most of them were shitposters from 4chan and Futaba (people on futaba actually went so far to claim it was shit for the lack of fanservice).

Since the manga with the explicit answers came out however, you can go in any thread of Umineko on 4chan and say whatever you want about it, people will just say "It's all there, you just need to find the answer by yourself, otherwhise, read the explicit manga", just like I said above.

As simple as that, nice try denigrating Umineko without actually paying attention to what are you talking about. The exit is there, above your browser (the little X).Last modified on 2016-06-01 at 02:07
#19 by iwasawa
2016-06-01 at 10:18
First, in your craving of misusing Jung's words , you're prospecting an impossible situation going by Jung's ideas: Yasu took on different personas to hide her self as the self is reached at the end of individuation, when the persona is gone... here it is in your language since this seems to be a black hole in your reasoning, such as

This is due to Beatrice being a repressed existence in Yasu's unconscious, that she however can't abandon for obvious reasons (the conflict in her/his Anima/Animus is shown and represented very explicitly through the story). There's a point where she actually had Beatrice as being a kind of imaginary friend, which lately she incorporates as a part of her Self in form of a new Persona, only to abandon it completely and try to live WITHOUT ANY CONSCIOUS OF IT (not that it is that simple), transforming Beatrice into the thing she don't want to identify herself as.

straight from the italian wiki

"La quarta tappa è caratterizzata dall'incontro con l'archetipo del Sé. Tale archetipo è la summa del percorso di individuazione" = "The fourth stage is characterized by the encounter with the archetype of the self. This archetype is the sum of the individuation process".

While from the 7h book

"the persona is a semblance... the dissolution of the persona is therefore absolutely necessary for individuation."

"Individuation, as an alternative and more desirable form of development than those forms* wherein the collective psyche has the upper hand is discussed. The aim of individuation, to divest the self of the false wrappings of the persona and the suggestive powers of primordial images, is presented."

*these forms being the regressive restoration of the persona and the identification with the collective psyche, since the the persona collapsing (not personaS, they aren't t-shirts and you don't change them after a shower) is the starting point of individuation.

So no, Shannon and Kanon are't jungian personas made by her to hide her self, even less the others... the persona isn't a nice face you put up for kids.
Let me stress the point: they are a form of alter egos, the Jung connection is something preposterous on your part. And Beatrice isn't even something Yasu created iirc (weren't, at least the bases of those stories, Chiyo's? Can't remember), but by this point it's already uninportant.

Not to say that the whole talking in individuation's term for someone who's pretty much a child is stupid to begin with anyway.



The fanbase that abandoned it didn't get the story at first, and most of them were shitposters from 4chan and Futaba

The fanbase abandoned him (not it, him, as Umineko has a very low standing in Japan but what came after might as well not exist for them aside for Rewrite in which Romeo is the main writer and still bombed) when after gatering malcontent because of the ending of Chiru -that is, the end of chapter 7- and the exchange that followed with the fans he ended up writing chapter 8 as a sop but still filled it with reprimands to his (ex) fanbase... lack of fanservice my boots.

Also, this thing is considered difficult only because it caters to incompetents like you that take 160+ hours to read a 90 hours blob of terrible prose and godawful art (although a good story at heart imo, as someone who's not a fan of him and never was), and try to overinterpret it around internet trying to look some kind of videogame scholar while displaying lack of basic understanding of the concepts underlying the theories they would like to make other believes they are talking about with cognition, misunderstaing stuff in the process and accusing other people of not having understood the game because they aren't complacent toward their own hallucination. Also, you know, in Jung's Collected Works there's stuff that could make someone like you saying that some nukige are based on Jung's work, just saying.Last modified on 2016-06-01 at 11:09
#20 by gabezhul
2016-06-01 at 11:51
Guys, guys! I don't necessarily agree with danpmss either, but could you keep it civil please? This is one of the more interesting threads on the boards at the moment, and while I don't really agree with the Jungian interpretation of the characters (or much of Jungian psychology in general), I would love to see you guys bounce ideas off each other *without* name calling.
#21 by danpmss
2016-06-01 at 16:21
#20
I didn't name-called this user or anything, but I do admit provoking him for his sharp tongue commentary about myself and about the author and work we are discussing in here.

I will behave very neutrally starting with this comment.


#19
First, in your craving of misusing Jung's words , you're prospecting an impossible situation going by Jung's ideas: Yasu took on different personas to hide her self as the self is reached at the end of individuation, when the persona is gone... here it is in your language since this seems to be a black hole in your reasoning...

I'm not misusing anything. If you did read his books, you will know that each tome is a vast collection of ideas being studied about one person's unconscious. And I gave the words in a very simple context (not even picking cryptic examples or anything like that).

In any case, you do realise I said Ryukishi picked a variety of ideas that coincidentially is VERY similar to the descriptions of how our interaction with the collective unconscious works, right? Meaning, you won't see all of the mysticism in his works floating around there, like the whole Hermetic Tarot thing, nor his Alchemy studies, but only the part he choose to take as a base to his story.

Don't expect to some of the things, like visiting and interacting like that in the collective unconscious, to be anything but theoretical at best (just a interpretation, like the rather silly one in the Persona Series, at some point).

With that in mind, I'll continue to mention each part of what he wrote that, as I well said above, most likely took from Jung's studies.


"La quarta tappa è caratterizzata dall'incontro con l'archetipo del Sé. Tale archetipo è la summa del percorso di individuazione" = "The fourth stage is characterized by the encounter with the archetype of the self. This archetype is the sum of the individuation process".


While from the 7h book

"the persona is a semblance... the dissolution of the persona is therefore absolutely necessary for individuation."

"Individuation, as an alternative and more desirable form of development than those forms* wherein the collective psyche has the upper hand is discussed. The aim of individuation, to divest the self of the false wrappings of the persona and the suggestive powers of primordial images, is presented."

*these forms being the regressive restoration of the persona and the identification with the collective psyche, since the the persona collapsing (not personaS, they aren't t-shirts and you don't change them after a shower) is the starting point of individuation.

So no, Shannon and Kanon are't jungian personas made by her to hide her self, even less the others... the persona isn't a nice face you put up for kids.
Let me stress the point: they are a form of alter egos, the Jung connection is something preposterous on your part.

This one is very simple to argue about (yet difficult to comment on, since it's a fairly complicated topic):

(I will call Yasu a "her" from now on, since it's probably the kind of sexual identity she has anyway)

First, let's state some definitions, beginning with the difference between Persona and Personality:

"Persona" refers to one's public image or say - public personality, a social mask of a sort, changing according to one's self-development during their life.

Said development is called individuation, or as Jung would say in Volume 6:
"...it is the process by which individual beings are formed and differentiated [from other human beings]; in particular, it is the development of the psychological individual as a being distinct from the general, collective psychology."

"Personality" refers to the inner "self" and "ego" as a whole. I will take this time a little thing from Wikipedia (inb4 I feel dirty already) which explains more smoothly this:

"What distinguishes Jungian psychology is the idea that there are two centers of the personality.The ego is the center of consciousness, whereas the Self is the center of the total personality, which includes consciousness, the unconscious, and the ego. The Self is both the whole and the center. While the ego is a self-contained little center of the circle contained within the whole, the Self can be understood as the greater circle."

Yasu has split personalities, due to her identity crysis. Her True Self is constantly losing space for her other Selves. These other Selves however are also acting out as her Personas (yes PersonaS, multiple Selves are the consequence of this, even though one could argue both of these are some other kind of problem, as I'm going to explain bellow), and interacting with the external world according to their own needs (Kanon basically being a sort of escapism of her, the self she would have the tendence to throw her laments about her identity at, while her sexual and love frustrations would be moved to Beatrice).

Now, for this topic, things will get more wild, since even Jung himself had his own split personality (as stated in "Memories, Dreams, Reflections"), which many described to be a False Self, while the True Self would be also one of the two.

Yasu consciously used her personalities according to what she felt in each moment, including the need to appear or behave as someone else in different occasions. So, even though she has these problems, she is very aware of them, and this is not actually uncommon.

An individual's personality becomes fragmented into seemingly separate identities, and these identities may or may not know of other identities existence.
This split is frequently traced to severe childhood trauma (in case of Yasu, obviously justificable). By creating a 'dissociation', the child is able to compartmentalize abuse to a certain degree so that their entire life is not completely miserable.

The family may or may not interfere, going with it giving names for each personality, etc...

Which begs the famous question of many psychology students and teachers:

"By creating different names for these various aspects of a person's identity, are we encouraging the person to deal with the difficulties by making them consciously aware of these "other selves", or are we reinforcing the tendency of the person to rely on these different identities to help them cope with life?"

Take a guess of one of the main plot points in Umineko regarding Kumasawa and Genji. When Kumasawa and Genji started making up her real identity, and going with what Yasu would like to be like, they started a trainwreck the would only end into a gigantic explosion (literally).

And Beatrice isn't even something Yasu created iirc (weren't, at least the bases of those stories, Chiyo's? Can't remember), but by this point it's already uninportant.

I'm glad you asked that, because this is a part of one of the main points of the development of one's Self (which would be the product of the already mentioned individuation).

Starting with the said individuation, let's take a look of what I wrote above:
"...it is the process by which individual beings are formed and differentiated [from other human beings]". She assumed everything from the stories and interactions she had with Kumasawa, the first "Beatrice", the person who made up the legend, which gained strenght due to many people having faith on its legitimacy (but that's a whoooooooole other topic involving the concepts of the Japanese Shinto, which I would argue it was handled in base of volume 11... which I just want to evade, for being such a massive pain the ass to talk about).

When I said Beatrice is the former shadow that became part of herself towards the end of her life, I talk about "The encounter of the individual with their* shadow", and as well as the development of said individual depending of the situation they* are on.

And getting on that point, what if I told you Shannon and Kanon could also be former shadows due to her mental condition?

"The shadow personifies everything that the subject refuses to acknowledge about himself" and represents "a tight passage, a narrow door, whose painful constriction no one is spared who goes down to the deep well". If and when an individual makes an attempt to see his shadow, he becomes aware of (and often ashamed of) those qualities and impulses he denies in himself but can plainly see in others — such things as egotism, mental laziness, and sloppiness; unreal fantasies, schemes, and plots; carelessness and cowardice; inordinate love of money and possessions — ...[a] painful and lengthy work of self-education".

As you might know, in volume 7, Jung expressed his thoughts about the Shadow of an individual and its role in the "dissolution of one's persona".

Take aaaaaall this info from the quote in mind and go read Episode 7 (or even better, for a completely explicit demonstration, go read Episode 8's "Confession of the Golden Witch"), everything is spot-on, especially if we talk about that in said context where Yasu has pretty much 3 personalities, each of them having at least one of these aspects, as demonstrated by the story (due to giving exclusive priority in love to Shannon, Kanon has a repressed desire for himself, to possess something to love instead of just being a "furniture", Shannon got the mental laziness part, and basically live for her love, while the witch Beatrice is THE unreal fantasy, scheming and ploting, besides all of them make the Witch as some kind of shadow in their eyes (again, it's way more complicated than that, and I explained above why, and Beatrice was the last personality of her to actually gain space as a new Self).

Not to say that the whole talking in individuation's term for someone who's pretty much a child is stupid to begin with anyway.

Read about that topic above, this is a premature, but very possible development of one's Self, even as a child.


The fanbase abandoned him (not it, him, as Umineko has a very low standing in Japan but what came after might as well not exist for them aside for Rewrite in which Romeo is the main writer and still bombed) when after gatering malcontent because of the ending of Chiru -that is, the end of chapter 7- and the exchange that followed with the fans he ended up writing chapter 8 as a sop but still filled it with reprimands to his (ex) fanbase... lack of fanservice my boots.


Super low standing, yeah. A doujin-soft visual novel gaining a millionary (and probably the most expensive ever) PS3 adaptation with some of the best Seiyuus in Japan (that sold 20k each, pretty big numbers for a VN port), 8 different manga publications (which also sold 20-30k each, numbers going down a bit as it progressed, like any other manga), 13 books and counting by Kodansha Box (numbers were not announced however, but I believe the sales were low) and an (terrible) anime adaptation.

Also, if Rewrite was a bomb, I highly DOUBT they would even have adapted it into an anime like they are doing right now.

In fact, look at HOW MUCH Rewrite bombed in Japan:

" 2011, Rewrite ranked five times in the top ten in national PC game pre-orders in Japan. The rankings were at No. 9 in January, No. 4 in February, No. 3 in March, and twice at No. 1 in April and May.[112][113] Rewrite ranked first in terms of national sales of PC games in Japan in June 2011.[114] Rewrite would rank twice more in the top 50 highest selling PC games in Japan, at No. 14 in July and at No. 29 in August 2011.[115] According to public sales information published at Gamasutra, taken from the Japanese Amazon website, Rewrite was the number one top seller of PC games in Japan the day of its release.[116] Rewrite premiered as the No. 1 game sold on Getchu.com, a major redistributor of visual novel and domestic anime products, during the month of its release,[117] and at No. 30 in July.[118] The game would go on to be the No. 8 game sold for the first half of 2011,[119] and at No. 11 for the whole year.[120] In 2012, Rewrite Harvest festa! ranked three times in the top ten in national PC game pre-orders in Japan. The rankings were at No. 6 in April, No. 3 in May, and No. 1 in June.[121][122] Harvest festa! ranked first in terms of national sales of PC games in Japan in July 2012.[123]"

You are the one being salty for how he ended episode 8 without giving the answer in your hands, and this is pretty much clear, reading what you just said.


Also, this thing is considered difficult only because it caters to incompetents like you that take 160+ hours to read a 90 hours blob of terrible prose and godawful art (although a good story at heart imo, as someone who's not a fan of him and never was)...

The godawful art is a fact, no denials on that matter. the rest is just bullshit; his prose is a mix of european mystery narrative with Edogawa Ranpo's descriptions of crime scenes and intense moments, all this in japanese, without being purple-prose-ish like most of the works I've read in japanese, especially in VNs, nothing terrible at all in my opinion, and if you think so, feel free to mention what is soooo horrible in his prose.

The 160+ hours is also a fact, just search for playthroughs of Umineko and compare them to the duration of the playthroughs of other VNs. So far, from my own experience this is the hugest VN in the whole database (without any text repetition, like, naturally, branched VNs have. The already mentioned Rewrite, without any skip on already read text, has 100 hours, and it's the biggest Key ever produced so far).


...and try to overinterpret it around internet trying to look some kind of videogame scholar while displaying lack of basic understanding of the concepts underlying the theories they would like to make other believes they are talking about with cognition, misunderstaing stuff in the process and accusing other people of not having understood the game because they aren't complacent toward their own hallucination.

You just described yourself in here, complete with pretentiousess... and rude to the root, I might add.

I know what I studied, and I wouldn't even risk in ever saying anything about this if I wasn't completely aware of such complex statement.


Also, you know, in Jung's Collected Works there's stuff that could make someone like you saying that some nukige are based on Jung's work, just saying.

And there are other VNs that are based on his studies. Not necessarily Nukige, but there are.

Umineko is just one out of many, I just mentioned it because of how much in terms of quantity it has to do with it in the "Genius Bonus" part of the story. It's indeed just that, a bonus to anyone who studied Jung. Nothing more, nothing less.

Some works in here even mention Jung as a huge part of the plot (Remember11, anyone?), you talk like it is some kind of undeserved achievement. Take a chill pill.

-----------------------------------------

*Forgive me if "their" isn't the most correct grammatical approach, guys, I actually needed to search that one up and people told me this was the best option.Last modified on 2016-06-01 at 16:52
#22 by iwasawa
2016-06-01 at 19:06
Yasu has split personalities, due to her identity crysis. Her True Self is constantly losing space for her other Selves. These other Selves however are also acting out as her Personas (yes PersonaS, multiple Selves are the consequence of this, even though one could argue both of these are some other kind of problem, as I'm going to explain bellow), and interacting with the external world according to their own needs (Kanon basically being a sort of escapism of her, the self she would have the tendence to throw her laments about her identity at, while her sexual and love frustrations would be moved to Beatrice).

Now, for this topic, things will get more wild, since even Jung himself had his own split personality (as stated in "Memories, Dreams, Reflections"), which many described to be a False Self, while the True Self would be also one of the two.

Let alone that you went from calling what you refering to as Personas as Selves and False Selves and personalities

Yasu consciously used her personalities according to what she felt in each moment, including the need to appear or behave as someone else in different occasions.

as if it was the most natural thing in world, Jung didn't claim to have DID, that was a bridge laid on nothing to his theories made later as what he was talking about wasn't pathological while DID is. Also, the persona is one. Remember that's me talking about generic alter egos without pretense of psychiatric truth in Umineko and you about jungian persona, although you dropped any pretense of coherence and started calling them whatever you felt like.

And guess what

"An alter ego (Latin, "the other I") is a second self, which is believed to be distinct from a person's normal or original personality. A person who has an alter ego is said to lead a double life. The term appeared in common usage in the early 19th century when dissociative identity disorder was first described by psychologists"

Obv that self isn't a jungian self as Jung isn't the center of the universe, just in case. You too talks about alter ego but for unknown reason are still insisting with Jung.

Super low standing, yeah. A doujin-soft visual novel gaining a millionary (and probably the most expensive ever) PS3 adaptation with some of the best Seiyuus in Japan (that sold 20k each, pretty big numbers for a VN port), 8 different manga publications (which also sold 20-30k each, numbers going down a bit as it progressed, like any other manga), 13 books and counting by Kodansha Box (numbers were not announced however, but I believe the sales were low) and an (terrible) anime adaptation.

The low standing of Umineko in Japan is a renown fact even to the anglophone fanbase, anyone can drop here and confirm it to you and anyone can see your vast ignorance on anything related to this medium.
The milionary port is mostly in your head, as most of the concepts of psycology you tried to talk about, as they made it cheaper by keeping the numer of cgs low and anyway compared to stuff with actual gargantuan production values like ef this pales, give a damn about it being a port if you make it thinking it could sell like its predecessor, at least imo.
Anime adaptation often aren't something a manga or a game get because is popular, but is made to boost the sellings of the original work. A bad selling light novel, averaging 10k, can get an anime adaptation to add a zero to the figure. Also, Higurashi sold half a milion copies... want to make comparisons? It could help knowing how much the doujin sold, as is a number I never stumbled upon.
Although number of copies sold for products of this medium is usually something to be taken with a grain of salt... if one is intersted in anime Oricon public datas often covers around 80% of actual sales, but the products of this medium have it worse.

" In fact, look at HOW MUCH Rewrite bombed in Japan:

"2011, Rewrite ranked five times in the top ten in national PC game pre-orders in Japan. The rankings were at No. 9 in January, No. 4 in February, No. 3 in March, and twice at No. 1 in April and May.[112][113] Rewrite ranked first in terms of national sales of PC games in Japan in June 2011.[114] Rewrite would rank twice more in the top 50 highest selling PC games in Japan, at No. 14 in July and at No. 29 in August 2011.[115] According to public sales information published at Gamasutra, taken from the Japanese Amazon website, Rewrite was the number one top seller of PC games in Japan the day of its release.[116] Rewrite premiered as the No. 1 game sold on Getchu.com, a major redistributor of visual novel and domestic anime products, during the month of its release,[117] and at No. 30 in July.[118] The game would go on to be the No. 8 game sold for the first half of 2011,[119] and at No. 11 for the whole year.[120] In 2012, Rewrite Harvest festa! ranked three times in the top ten in national PC game pre-orders in Japan. The rankings were at No. 6 in April, No. 3 in May, and No. 1 in June.[121][122] Harvest festa! ranked first in terms of national sales of PC games in Japan in July 2012.[123]"

Considering what kind of project Rewrite was, and that Key isn't your average vn company, this is not enough. While something selling 35k-40k is currently very good news for most company producing low budget bishoujo games, it's no good for Key.
Funnily enough, in my "aside for Rewrite in which Romeo is the main writer and still bombed" I wasn't even putting the fault on Ryukishi07, Rewrite bombed as a whole.

You just described yourself in here, complete with pretentiousess... and rude to the root, I might add.

I know what I studied, and I wouldn't even risk in ever saying anything about this if I wasn't completely aware of such complex statement.

It's not me embellishing the game because I like it and making things up because I have to overinterpret it. Stick to what it is, there's enough disaccord and variations in this game interpretation already, no need to induce further misunderstandings.

his prose is a mix of european mystery narrative with Edogawa Ranpo's descriptions of crime scenes and intense moments, all this in japanese, without being purple-prose-ish like most of the works I've read in japanese, especially in VNs, nothing terrible at all in my opinion, and if you think so, feel free to mention what is soooo horrible in his prose.

The 160+ hours is also a fact, just search for playthroughs of Umineko and compare them to the duration of the playthroughs of other VNs.

Gonna be my screensaver for a while, it's so laughable on so many levels I don't even.Last modified on 2016-06-01 at 20:54
#23 by danpmss
2016-06-01 at 21:09
#22

Let alone that you went from calling what you refering to as Personas as Selves and False Selves and personalities

First of all, I never contradicted the statement. It makes perfect sense in that context.

Second of all, "many described" =/= me, it was an example discussed by some other psychologists (more specifically, related to the review of " Memories, Dreams, Reflections" made by D.W. Winnicott, who was the one who described it as being a False Self, which is comprehensible enough). I used only the terms and explanations written by Jung himself in my arguments (and when I do not, I make sure to mention it wasn't him, nor Freud, in the case I'll explain bellow.

as if it was the most natural thing in world, Jung didn't claim to have DID, that was a bridge laid on nothing to his theories made later as what he was talking about wasn't pathological while DID is.

Jung CLAIMED to have a second personality, and that much is documented in that mentioned book. This is a fact.

And Yasu can do this as it was natural, and this in fact the case for many people.
If you read literally the next lines after this affirmation:
"So, even though she has these problems, she is very aware of them, and this is not actually uncommon. An individual's personality becomes fragmented into seemingly separate identities, and these identities may or may not know of other identities existence."

This last sentence being Jung's own words about D.I.D..

Also, the persona is one. Remember that's me talking about alter egos without pretense of psychiatric truth and you about jungian persona, although you dropped any pretense of coherence and started calling them whatever you felt like.
And guess what

"An alter ego (Latin, "the other I") is a second self, which is believed to be distinct from a person's normal or original personality. A person who has an alter ego is said to lead a double life. The term appeared in common usage in the early 19th century when dissociative identity disorder was first described by psychologists"

Obv that self isn't a jungian self as Jung isn't the center of the universe, just in case.

Now you are putting words in my mouth.
My only use of the word "Alter Ego" (a VERY misused term) as I said above: "would be related to roleplaying, instead of being a similar definition to a Shadow, by the words of Freud". And I said that right from the beginning, pay attention to what you are making up to be an argument. That would only apply to Ryukishi, Willard and Knox in Umineko (Ryukishi in special, for being a self-insert).


The low standing of Umineko in Japan is a renown fact even to the anglophone fanbase, anyone can drop here and confirm it to you and anyone can see your vast ignorance on anything related to this medium.
The milionary port is mostly in your head, as most of the concepts of psycology you tried to talk about, as they made it cheaper by keeping blurred photographic backgrounds and keeping the numer of cgs low.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And you call ME ignorant. Like the cost of redrawing the shitty art has anything to do with the actual thing! Paying many valuable Seiyuus that are the thing that cost the most in the whole industry these days to dub hundreds of hours of text is the actual problem. You better read some articles from ANN in that regard, last year they did a very informative one about this (More directioned to the anime side however, since we are talking about Shirobako and the animators polemic in there iirc).



Anime adaptation often aren't something a manga or a game get because is popular, but is made to boost the sellings of the original work.

This is obvious. I was however talking about another thing. Do you really think a manga adaptation of a visual novel, anime or light novel won't get cut short if they have bad sales? For the overall numbers of each magazines in which all Umineko titles were published, they sold a fairly high ammount of volumes (20k-30k per volume, according to an anon on /jp/ some last month). Umineko was never cut short in either manga nor novelization, as a proof (53 freaking volumes published btw).

The anime sold badly (as it should), and we won't have a continuation because of that.

A bad selling light novel, averaging 10k, can get an anime adaptation to add a zero to the figure. Also, Higurashi sold half a milion copies... want to make comparison? It could help knowing how much the doujin sold, as is a number I don't know.

Higurashi doujin+port sold 500k+ copies.

Umineko sold just as much, if not more than Higurashi, in the original doujin sales (at least until EP6).

Higurashi, by the way, has a much larger otaku pandering and fanservice, so it is just natural the Japanese fanbase would be more interested on it than in Umineko, which didn't had that same appeal (almost 0 fanservice). That thing I said about Futaba is true by the way. I'm not even kidding about it, they are harcore with anything 2D-related.

In the console however, as Higurashi was a brand new game with routes, it sold MUCH more (140k, compared to the direct port 20k from Umineko).

One thing is for sure, Japanese people wouldn't EVER invest in something they don't think it is popular enough to sell or to make the original sell, unless we are talking about exceptions (NHK "educational" anime series, etc...).

Considering the fact Umineko PS3 sold almost the same in both releases, by the time Episode 8 was already released in the case of the second PS3 title, that should say enough to you.


Although number of copies sold for products of this medium is usually something to be taken with a grain of salt... if one is intersted in anime Oricon public datas often covers around 80% of actual sales, but the products of this medium have it worse.

Exactly, for a visual novel port, Umineko sold pretty good in Japan. Not a gigantic hit like Steins;Gate, Fate/Stay Night or Higurashi (that bishoujo game additional appeal in the first two though...).

Heck, Fate/Stay Night sold like water in both PS2 and PS Vita releases. That's Type-Moon for you.


Considering what kind of project Rewrite was, and that Key isn't your average vn company, this is not enough. While something selling 35k-40k is currently very good news for most company producing low budget bishoujo games, it's no good for Key.
Funnily enough, in my "aside for Rewrite in which Romeo is the main writer and still bombed" I wasn't even putting the fault on Ryukishi07, Rewrite bombed as a whole.

Sold 35k in the first month maybe? Because the numbers of the sales are said to have surpassed Stein's Gate in 2011). Guess how much Steins;Gate, with anime and everything at that time sold in total (up to the release of Steins;Gate 0)? More than 1.000.000 copies.

Clannad sold 100k copies in 2004 as a whole, and the other Key games sold aorund that as well, until eventually increasing with the anime release. Rewrite is nowhere bellow these numbers.

Stick to what it is, there's enough disaccord and variations in this game interpretation already, no need to induce further misunderstandings.

Disaccord on what, exactly? Since the manga of EP8, there was no disaccord or variations in the interpretation. Everything was made pretty clear, and the foreshadowing, explanations and everything where all in the VN. Go surf a bit in the most recent Umineko thread on /jp/ and ask whatever is unclear (even better, throw your questions to me), I will make sure to explain the things that are not "explained" to you).


Gonna be my screensaver for a while, it's so laughable on so many levels I don't even.

No, please "even". I want to know your opinion in that matter, instead of these rough commentaries without any base. I really want to know what you have to say about the prose, go on.Last modified on 2016-06-01 at 21:29
#24 by iwasawa
2016-06-01 at 23:53
First of all, I never contradicted the statement. It makes perfect sense in that context.

Second of all, "many described" =/= me, it was an example discussed by some other psychologists (more specifically, related to the review of " Memories, Dreams, Reflections" made by D.W. Winnicott, who was the one who described it as being a False Self, which is comprehensible enough). I used only the terms and explanations written by Jung himself in my arguments (and when I do not, I make sure to mention it wasn't him, nor Freud, in the case I'll explain bellow.

Many described Jung's self-described split personalities as something unrelated to DID, but you likened them anyway.
About contradictions, in general

Let's start with Yasu

There we have the multiple Personas of each character in the series, as well as their Shadows (We can go with Genji=Ronove, Kumasawa=Virgilia, YASU=BEATRICE, Ryukishi's alter ego= Ikkuko, Willard Wright's alter ego=Van Dine/Philo Vance (deconstructed), Knox's child (metaphorically, his decalogue)=Dlanor (equally deconstructed), etc... the list goes on and on).

Here Beatrice is either a persona or a shadow. You're still talking about Jung and are within individuation bounds.

Yasu has Beatrice as a Shadow

Here she's a shadow, still talking about individuation.

Beatrice, in other words, is not really a shadow, but a rejected persona (since her ego is conscious of it).

Here she's not a shadow anymore, but another rejected archetype. At least we're still within individuation.

Yasu has split personalities, due to her identity crysis. Her True Self is constantly losing space for her other Selves. These other Selves however are also acting out as her Personas

Here you are actually talking about DID. Won't pick on the terms since you explained your reasons and I want to leave at it.

About Kanon and Shannon

If you actually understood Umineko (of course you didn't, otherwise I wouldn't have to explain this), you would notice that Kanon and Shanon are Personas of Yasu trying to hide her Self

And you understood it so well and were so sure that

And getting on that point, what if I told you Shannon and Kanon could also be former shadows due to her mental condition?

you come up with another possibility along the way.
So I would tell you that those are different archetypes and that there's a limit to how much I want to play along. And in the same line you shift from individuation to alter egos, shifting from Jung to DID as

This split is frequently traced to severe childhood trauma (in case of Yasu, obviously justificable).

this proves as that's pathological territory.

Now

Jung CLAIMED to have a second personality, and that much is documented in that mentioned book. This is a fact.

And no one said it's false. What I told you is that Jung's split personality isn't DID split personality as the latter is pathological while the former isn't.
Same terms mean different concepts going by the author or context and Jung himself didn't thread on DID.

"So, even though she has these problems, she is very aware of them, and this is not actually uncommon. An individual's personality becomes fragmented into seemingly separate identities, and these identities may or may not know of other identities existence."

This last sentence being Jung's own words about D.I.D..

They aren't about DID as Jung never talked about pathology and there's no pathology involved in your quote. Winnicott instead

Jungians have explored the overlap between Jung's concept of the persona and Winnicott's False Self; but, while noting similarities, consider that only the most rigidly defensive persona approximates to the pathological status of the false self.

From the Self and False Self wiki page.

Now you are putting words in my mouth.
My only use of the word "Alter Ego" (a VERY misused term) as I said above: "would be related to roleplaying, instead of being a similar definition to a Shadow, by the words of Freud". And I said that right from the beginning, pay attention to what you are making up to be an argument. That would only apply to Ryukishi, Willard and Knox in Umineko (Ryukishi in special, for being a self-insert).

If you talk about pathology that's what in the end is, no matter what you, I or someone else want.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And you call ME ignorant. Like the cost of redrawing the shitty art has anything to do with the actual thing! Paying many valuable Seiyuus that are the thing that cost the most in the whole industry these days to dub hundreds of hours of text is the actual problem. You better read some articles from ANN in that regard, last year they did a very informative one about this (More directioned to the anime side however, since we are talking about Shirobako and the animators polemic in there iirc).

Well... here's your ANN, an interview with Nobukazu Sakai (minori)

"Cyzo's Business Journal website interviewed minori producer Nobukazu Sakai ("nbkz") about the current state of the bishōjo game industry in an article published on Sunday. Sakai noted that it takes about 30 million yen (about US$300,000) to make a title of a certain level of quality. However, the budgets of minori's own Supipara and ef titles exceeded 100 million yen (US$1 million). He explained this is mainly due to CG costs, particularly due to users' higher screen resolutions and PC specs. His company releases only one game per year."

If you really do high level stuff with many cgs, art cost top even high level seiyuu's. Usually it's true that seiyuu are the most expensive part of producing a vn, but you still have new games in 2016 with 800x600 resolution and just a few dozen mediocre cgs because seiyuu have priority, not because you can have all around good production values putting less money in art than in seiyuu.

Higurashi doujin+port sold 500k+ copies.

Umineko sold just as much, if not more than Higurashi, in the original doujin sales (at least until EP6).

Higurashi, by the way, has a much larger otaku pandering and fanservice, so it is just natural the Japanese fanbase would be more interested on it than in Umineko, which didn't had that same appeal (almost 0 fanservice). That thing I said about Futaba is true by the way. I'm not even kidding about it, they are harcore with anything 2D-related.

In the console however, as Higurashi was a brand new game with routes, it sold MUCH more (140k, compared to the direct port 20k from Umineko).

One thing is for sure, Japanese people wouldn't EVER invest in something they don't think it is popular enough to sell or to make the original sell, unless we are talking about exceptions (NHK "educational" anime series, etc...).

Considering the fact Umineko PS3 sold almost the same in both releases, by the time Episode 8 was already released in the case of the second PS3 title, that should say enough to you.

Ok, but Higurashi also reached a lot of casuals thanks to the anime, vn buyers pool isn't nearly big enough to let a game that doesen't break the bounds as hard as titles as Fate, Clannad and Higurashi itself to let a vn sell several hundred thousand copies. That aside I agree on the rest.

Exactly, for a visual novel port, Umineko sold pretty good in Japan. Not a gigantic hit like Steins;Gate, Fate/Stay Night or Higurashi (that bishoujo game additional appeal in the first two though...).

Heck, Fate/Stay Night sold like water in both PS2 and PS Vita releases. That's Type-Moon for you.

It did sell fine, as for Rewrite (I did write that for most companies that don't deal in high production values games 35k-40k is very good news) my point is intended relatively speaking and since we're talking about this, still from Nobukazu Sakai

"Sakai said that in the last decade, a super hit sold 100,000 copies, a big hit sold 30,000, and a regular hit sold 20,000. However, a game would be a hit now with only 10,000 copies — with Japan having a population of 100 million over the age of 18, that means only 0.01% are buying these games. To explain the declining sales, Sakai said that this is the age where entertainment has diversified with YouTube, Niconico, social games, and multiple game systems such as the PlayStation 3, PSP, and Nintendo 3DS"

Pessimist even in my opinion and I remember another producer talking about 30k as a big hit around the same period (early 2013).

While I don't know the exact number I do know that Umineko didn't figured in the best selling titles rankings, aside for a few the others were still below Majikoi (around 200k), so I doubt Umineko ended up selling like Higurashi.

Sold 35k in the first month maybe? Because the numbers of the sales are said to have surpassed Stein's Gate in 2011).


Guess how much Steins;Gate, with anime and everything at that time sold in total (up to the release of Steins;Gate 0)? More than 1.000.000 copies.

Clannad sold 100k copies in 2004 as a whole, and the other Key games sold aorund that as well, until eventually increasing with the anime release. Rewrite is nowhere bellow these numbers.

That can't possibly be correct as around anime adaptation Steins;Gate was the best selling vn ever without anime adaptation at around 300k copies. It actually got to 1.000.000 well before the annuncement of S;G 0 although probably is still around there. I don't really remember how much time after the release Rewrite data was.Last modified on 2016-06-02 at 01:47
#25 by danpmss
2016-06-02 at 03:53
#24

Sorry for the late reply, things are getting kinda busy around here (and I didn't even sleep well this night) lol

Many described Jung's self-described split personalities as something unrelated to DID, but you likened them anyway.

I just gave an example really. It's not like I'm trying to ignore what other people in the area said after all (so I find it just fair to also present their opinion in that matter).

About contradictions, in general
Let's start with Yasu
"quote"
Here Beatrice is either a persona or a shadow. You're still talking about Jung and are within individuation bounds.
"quote"
Here she's a shadow, still talking about individuation.
"quote"
Here she's not a shadow anymore, but another rejected archetype. At least we're still within individuation.
"quote"
Here you are actually talking about DID. Won't pick on the terms since you explained your reasons and I want to leave at it.

Following my explanation on how the former shadows began to form other Selves, and consequentially other personas of their own, this is not an actual contradiction, but I admit my text was organized rather poorly at the beginning (which is why I had the need to enter in such major detail after the replies), and I apologize for that.

About Kanon and Shannon
"quote"
And you understood it so well and were so sure that
"quote"
you come up with another possibility along the way.
So I would tell you that those are different archetypes and that there's a limit to how much I want to play along.

Don't even bother with that (it would just be a waste of time creating a discussion around said quote), that was actually just a what "if" situation. It isn't even firmly confirmed in the VN nor the manga about the way Yasu felt any rejection from Shannon or Kanon. "...could..." says it all. It was 100% hypothetical from me.


And in the same line you shift from individuation to alter egos, shifting from Jung to DID as
"This split is frequently traced to severe childhood trauma (in case of Yasu, obviously justificable)."
this proves as that's pathological territory.

Now now, I did said it was "in Yasu's case, justificable", but I didn't say it actually WAS the case (that would be stupid of me, since both of us know very well her "childhood trauma" was something she experienced waaaaaaay after all those D.I.D. things happened 'after' she became the Head of the Ushiromiya and was presented with the truth about her identity).

It wasn't pathological, unless you want to include her being kind of a loner with the other kids making fun of her as a trauma (she actually had Genji and Kumasawa and lived well with that, so I wouldn't say it would be the case).


Now
"quote"
And no one said it's false. What I told you is that Jung's split personality isn't DID split personality as the latter is pathological while the former isn't.
Same terms mean different concepts going by the author or context and Jung himself didn't thread on DID.
"quote"
They aren't about DID as Jung never talked about pathology and there's no pathology involved in your quote.

You are completely right about pathology and D.I.D. according to Jung (I too think that way), and I already explained above the other quote was an actual misunderstanding (should have put a "would" in there, now that I think about it).

But I must say you are wrong about Jung never adressing pathology (here's a quote from "Man and his Symbols"):

"It is on such evidence that psychologists assume the existence of an unconscious psyche – though many scientists and philosophers deny its existence. They argue naively that such an assumption implies the existence of two "subjects," or (to put it in a common phrase) two personalities within the same individual. But that is exactly what it does imply – quite correctly. And it is one of the curses of modern man that many people suffer from this divided personality. It is by no means a pathological symptom; it is a normal fact that can be observed at any time and anywhere. It is not merely the neurotic whose right hand does not know what the left is doing. This predicament is a symptom of a general unconsciousness that is the undeniable common inheritance of all mankind."

That pretty much closes our topic in that matter.

Now, quoting the whole sales part (I'm not a big fan of this topic, since it kinda makes me feel bad for the entertainment industry direction in Japan these last few years, so I will make short and quick):

Well... here's your ANN, an interview with Nobukazu Sakai (minori)

"Cyzo's Business Journal website interviewed minori producer Nobukazu Sakai ("nbkz") about the current state of the bishōjo game industry in an article published on Sunday. Sakai noted that it takes about 30 million yen (about US$300,000) to make a title of a certain level of quality. However, the budgets of minori's own Supipara and ef titles exceeded 100 million yen (US$1 million). He explained this is mainly due to CG costs, particularly due to users' higher screen resolutions and PC specs. His company releases only one game per year."

If you really do high level stuff with many cgs, art cost top even high level seiyuu's. Usually it's true that seiyuu are the most expensive part of producing a vn, but you still have new games in 2016 with 800x600 resolution and just a few dozen mediocre cgs because seiyuu have priority, not because you can have all around good production values putting less money in art than in seiyuu.

While that might be the case in those circumstances (Let's be real, the CGs in his VNs are goddamn gorgeous for a reason), let's not forget that his cast is composed by three main heroines and 4-5 named secondary characters (from what I could get), and that the game isn't even that long (20+- hours). The cost of the Seiyuu is higher than the CGs in most cases, by a lot. And considering just how massive and how many named characters with hours and hours of lines there are in Umineko should say enough about the costs (especially considering they had an All-Star cast of Seiyuus). And the CGs in Umineko might be few for its dimension (heck, very few indeed) but are numerous and very well made as well.

But yeah, I think at this point, is rather pointless continue to discuss this matter (it depends so much of the VN and the production, it would never actually have a solid standard) :/

While I don't know the exact number I do know that Umineko didn't figured in the best selling titles rankings, aside for a few the others were still below Majikoi (around 200k), so I doubt Umineko ended up selling like Higurashi.

In fact, not at all (I was talking about the doujin sales for the first 6 episodes compared to Higurashi's doujin sales). Higurashi's sales were constant and every single port sold very well, for having unique content added to it (Kizuna on DS, the PS2 port, etc..).

Umineko couldn't be adapted in the same fashion, due to the structure of the plot, so fans were actually just buying a remaster of the original, voiced.

Higurashi as a whole must have sold at least twice as much as Umineko, even in the manga publications and novelization (the values of the novelization surprised me a lot actually, with a total of 800k volumes counting all of the books in the series). The novelization of Umineko never announce its numbers, so either they are so low they are obscured by the other releases (my opinion), or they just don't calculate them at all, like what is happening with other Kodansha BOX titles that are not Monogatari Series (possibility).

That can't possibly be correct as around anime adaptation Steins;Gate was the best selling vn ever without anime adaptation at around 300k copies. It actually got to 1.000.000 well before the annuncement of S;G 0 although probably is still around there. I don't really remember how much time after the release Rewrite data was.

Phrase got mixed up there, sorry. What I meant was:

Rewrite sold better than Stein's Gate in the month of release and the 3 months after that (the anime started around that time), while recently, with the announcement of S;G 0 sales, it was revealed that it has sold more than 1 million copies.

Considering these facts, I just found highly unlikely that Rewrite would have sold anywhere bellow 100k somehow. I could be wrong however, since the actual numbers are still to be revealed (I seriously couldn't find anywhere the anual chart of VN sales for that year).Last modified on 2016-06-02 at 03:59

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