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#701 by cubky
2021-07-30 at 07:04
< report >Infinity makes sense. I do not think the argument of "literally everyone refers to the game like this" is something we want to make into a rule. That would just invite a lot of different problems (eg. renaming the games to their english translated titles)
#702 by badspot
2021-07-30 at 07:04
< report >Infinity is just another game. Never7 is just a remake and KID, Cyberfront and now MAGES. separate those 2 versions. For fuck sake Never7 contains true route and major plot point that original Infinity doesn't even contain. If anything, they should be separated.

> That would just invite a lot of different problems (eg. renaming the games to their english translated titles)

How would that bring problems????? Never7 is the original Japanese title, not from English translation.

There are plenty of VNs here that don't use name of first releases. Dies irae is only 'Dies irae' and not 'Dies irae Also sprach Zarathustra' or Umineko no Naku Koro ni is not 'Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 1 - Legend of the Golden Witch'.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 07:18
#703 by NaioHoras
2021-07-30 at 07:18
< report >I'm more interested of why the hell the dev changed the name in the first. how quick the title changed might be a good reason to keep "Never7" as the main title IF they realized that they just made a big oopsie regarding the original title. however, if it was just some kind of marketing scheme then fuck it. but this reasoning requires more researchs which I'm not gonna bother to do. so overall I vote for keeping it to "Infinity".

Dies irae is only 'Dies irae' and not 'Dies irae Also sprach Zarathustra'
thanks for telling us. *ehem* mods *ehem* can you *ehem* edit: I just read the history.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 08:45
#704 by adamstan
2021-07-30 at 07:18
< report >
We usually don't make alternative versions for VNs that iddn't receive significant rewrites

Never7 contains true route and major plot point that original Infinity doesn't even contain.

I think that while standard "adding routes" might not qualify, the above should be enough to be considered "significant rewrite" justifying a split.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 07:23
#705 by badspot
2021-07-30 at 07:24
< report >#703 It's a long story. Players were not happy with Infinity's original true route and they decided to write new one and add a new plot twist that was not in original. This plot twist is the major plot point that is not available in original Infinity.

If you're interested, you can read retrospectives here link.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 07:26
#706 by Mario3573
2021-07-30 at 07:59
< report >I'd say this is a case of literally 100% of the fanbase refers to the VN as Never7, everybody uses Infinity to refer to the series, not the Never7 VN, it should be an exception to not cause confusion for new fans, even #689 was instantly confused by the name change and mixed up series/vn name.

or if you don't want confusion to be a factor when are we renaming every kara no shoujo entry to just kara no shoujo, the only thing that changes is the kanji, not the reading after all
#707 by phantom-zero-12
2021-07-30 at 07:59
< report >Honestly if anything it makes the most sense to separate them given how huge the changes made to Never7 are. Aside from adding a true route and one other route, the stuff that's added completely changes the plot of overall story as well. If you're familiar with Chaos;Head (the original is blatantly unfinished and Noah is the complete version) it's kinda similar to that in that Infinity is just an unfinished version of Never7 (except arguably even more drastically since even though there are less changes than Noah, the changes that are there affect the story so majorly).

But if they're going to remain the same entry, it should be called Never7, the devs changed the title for a reason (it makes far more sense as a title than "Infinity").

There is no benefit in renaming it to Infinity, it adds confusion for those who have never heard of it, it breaks naming conventions with the rest of the series, hell, Infinity can't even be considered part of the same series as the other games as all of the connections between them are stuff that was added in Never7, literally no one benefits.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 08:26
#708 by NaioHoras
2021-07-30 at 08:04
< report >#705 now I've read the article, I see no problem of keeping the title as "Infinity" as the dev themselves recognize that this game is actually a complete, failed version of the Never7. however, I'm not sure that if "changing the true route" thing can be regarded as "significant rewrites" previously mentioned by Beliar, as it is actually change your whole perspective of the game (and the possibility of different tags between Infinity and Never7). if we're gonna do a change, my opinion is to split into two vn entries. but the vn readers know more.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 08:13
#709 by adamstan
2021-07-30 at 08:30
< report >
actually change your whole perspective of the game (and the possibility of different tags between Infinity and Never7).

That's definitely significant - and very different from adding a heroine to romance game.
#710 by badspot
2021-07-30 at 08:41
< report >#708 I have read Never7 and I know content of Infinity and I can confirm that the true route and the said new plot point/plot twist changes your entire perspective of the game.
#711 by godotwashere
2021-07-30 at 08:57
< report >link

this is for the moderation staff. this is a translated TIP from remember11 which refers to the entire series. even the original developers of the game consider never7 its own entity and refer to the series as "infinity". not sure what you're trying to accomplish here by muddying the entire definition of the series
#712 by Arsym
2021-07-30 at 09:36
< report >Gonna give my two cents on why it should be "Never7".

1) Infinity ends on a comedy route. Never7 actually resolves the sci-fi plot threads. Never7 is essentially the "definitive" version that combines two incomplete titles (Infinity and Infinity Cure).
2) Infinity Cure has its own entry even though it was only released on the Neo Geo Pocket, and was replaced by Never7 less than a month later.
3) "Infinity" was considered incomplete and unsatisfactory by the creators. That comedy route I mentioned at the end of Infinity? Many players couldn't even access that due to a game-breaking bug.
4) The author's current bio refers to it as 「infinityシリーズ」(「Never7」「Ever17」「Remember11」)(link). Not even he calls the first title "Infinity", but rather the first entry is "Never7" within the wider "Infinity" trilogy.
5) Not one person refers to the game as "Infinity", and it's not like "Never7" is some English name we made up. Your desire to be consistent on this one point leads to confusion whereas the platform is perfectly fine bending the rules in other places.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 09:38
#713 by badspot
2021-07-30 at 10:23
< report >This entire site has inconsistencies. Look at 9-nine and Higurashi, Umineko. 9-nine's episodes are, for some reason, separated while Higurashi and Umineko episodes, despite being released similarly to 9-nine, are under 2 pages (1-4 under Question Arc while 5-8 under Answer Arc).

Don't point out to me 'but the consistency!!!!!!!!', there is no consistency on this site. If shit isn't broken then don't break it. I see no reason to keep 'Never7 -the end of infinity-' named as 'Infinity' since nobody in the damn world calls it like that.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 10:24
#714 by Ileca
2021-07-30 at 10:44
< report >Truth be told, I locked the entry on Infinity to make you seethe.

It's working. :D

On a more serious note: your answer to inconsistencies is more inconsistencies?

Yes, the database is filled with inconsistencies but we sent Naiohoras to fix them. You just have to wait as it shouldn't be long.
#715 by NaioHoras
2021-07-30 at 10:51
< report >right, it should not be long!
please help
#716 by badspot
2021-07-30 at 10:53
< report >I don't care if you locked it (I'm not the one who changed it back to Never7 to begin with, I just removed the JP title) so I'm not sure how I'm 'seething' here.

You're free to do whatever you want but keep in mind I'm at least not acting like a 7 year old brat who ignores all arguments everyone so far posted and instead replies with 'hahaha seethe'.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 15:38
#717 by adamstan
2021-07-30 at 10:56
< report >@716 but pointing out other inconsistencies in the db to make your point is very dangerous, and it often backfires. (Similar to how pointing out exceptions to the inclusion rules might cause them to be deleted as well) Now consistency faction will demand either splitting Higurashi and Umineko episodes, or merging 9-nine ones :P

IMO striving for some idealistic "database consistency without exceptions" without considering each game's individual circumstances isn't right - because ideals are unattainable. But I have no say in those matters.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 10:59
#718 by badspot
2021-07-30 at 11:02
< report >#717 And how was I supposed to know that there was a new consistency faction? Nobody posted anything about it in this thread. My entire point is that naming it Infinity is dumb when everyone for years kept calling Never7 'Never7' and it's consistent with Ever17 and Remember11. Even beliar agreed with it in t6248 few months ago when we merged Infinity and Never7 page into one. And like I posted before, new content in Never7 changes your entire perspective on the story so Never7's spoiler tags simply don't work with Infinity. Either make a new page for Never7 (like it was before) or simply keep the Never7 name.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 11:03
#719 by Arsym
2021-07-30 at 11:03
< report >
On a more serious note: your answer to inconsistencies is more inconsistencies?
Rules aren't applied indiscriminately, there's discretion and judgement based on context. I've provided some context, so I'd like to hear how that affects things.

I have no issues creating another page for Never7, just like how there's a page for Infinity Cure.
#720 by godotwashere
2021-07-30 at 11:06
< report >
I locked the entry on Infinity to make you seethe
acting unprofessionally doesn't help any argument you are making. the facts are as such:
-nobody on this planet refers to never7 as infinity, not a single soul who has played the game does that
-the developers currently refer to never7 as its own entity and infinity as the series everywhere
-never7 is a combined version of two other releases which was significantly updated in many ways and no longer uses their name
all you're doing is changing something that has been completely fine the way it is since the inception of the site for absolutely no discernible reason and then gloating at people who are rightfully asking why you are doing it. the reason you have so many people coming out of the woodwork here is because the change is not good and we are expressing that. i'm speaking as someone who spent several hundred hours editing ever17 in the himmel edition patch and several hundred more editing remember11 in the gestalt edition patch. i know more about infinity as a series than pretty much anyone and devoted a lot of time to it, and i'm saying this change is inaccurate, unnecessarily confusing to users, and overall pointless. please stop acting this way and instead accept feedback from people who know the work
#721 by beliar
2021-07-30 at 11:19
< report >
IMO striving for some idealistic "database consistency without exceptions" without considering each game's individual circumstances isn't right - because ideals are unattainable.
Frankly, I agree with you. Sometimes we should look at the spirit rather than the word of the law. Moreover, granting exceptions to established rules is a good old VNDB tradition :-D

So, for the purpose of the entry that has caused so many discussions we could consider "Infinity" to be the entry rejected by its own developer, so that "Never7" is the first proper release.
#722 by NaioHoras
2021-07-30 at 11:33
< report >guys, the only reason the vn entry is locked because even though this discussion is still going on yet people changed the entry without reaching a conclusion first. that kind of behaviour would not be accepted anywhere. the reason Never7 and Infinity was merged is because "the scripts are not different enough", and that's how we always separate vn entries. so bringing wrong examples to the wrong topic like #717 would not help you at all.

the argument "but literally everyone know it as Never7" is not good enough. imagine if Resident Evil were an entry in VNDB, the titile "Biohazard" would be choosen because that was what released first by the dev, even though everyone in the world know the series as Resident Evil beside the Japanese.

Sometimes we should look at the spirit rather than the word of the law.
I agree with this. but I feel like the exception should fall on creating separate entries. so many Infinity readers also agree that a separate vn entry would be suitable for this, and that's also my opinion. remembering that this new 'true' route would really affect what tags applied to the vn. plus the vn entry is already exist, but only in 'deleted' status, so I believe restoring it would not have too much harm.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 11:36
#723 by beliar
2021-07-30 at 11:45
< report >
so many Infinity readers also agree that a separate vn entry would be suitable for this
From what I am led to believe, Infinity is included in Never7 verbatim - there are no major changes to the script. it simply adds the true route from the Cure fan-disc in order to complete the experience. I feel that a separate entry for Infinity creates a bigger inconsistency than we currently have.

That said, considering the developer now considers Infinity to be an obsolete entry, I wouldn't be against marking it as "partial" to show that the game does not include the full experience of the game.
#724 by adamstan
2021-07-30 at 11:50
< report >
I wouldn't be against marking it as "partial" to show that the game does not include the full experience of the game.

Then how about making both Infinity and Cure the partial releases for "Never7" VN entry?Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 11:50
#725 by badspot
2021-07-30 at 11:50
< report >The thing is with Never7 is that you can't judge its story the same way if you read Infinity only. Never7/Infinity Cure exclusive content change your entire perspective on the story. It's true that there aren't major changes to the script but at the same time the script isn't the same as Infinity. There were some changes so they could foreshadow stuff that was revealed in Cure routes. I can't really fully explain it without going into spoiler territory.