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#726 by godotwashere
2021-07-30 at 11:55
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From what I am led to believe, Infinity is included in Never7 verbatim - there are no major changes to the script. it simply adds the true route from the Cure fan-disc in order to complete the experience.

while this is true, never7 also features a fully fledged scenario production mode which allows players to create their own scenarios inside the game, all graphics are completely redone, etc. by merging the two/erasing the original "infinity" like this you're actually contributing to the removal of useful context and documentation of visual novel development and people will not be able to see information on the infinity release and how it evolved
#727 by NaioHoras
2021-07-30 at 11:57
< report >#723 (edit: oops, people are fast) that feel a little wrong considering the dev did finish the game at that time. they only released a "fix" for it after people complained. that's the power of the people *looking at this thread*

but I have to agree that it's the best alternative we have right now.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 12:04
#728 by phantom-zero-12
2021-07-30 at 11:58
< report >I will also mention that the console releases of Never7 feature 34 append stories that are completely absent from Infinity (which has no append stories).Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 12:18
#729 by malucart
2021-07-30 at 14:22
< report >Never7 is just the name of the definitive, final version of the game. it modifies the original script and add scenes and a lot of CGs, for example the whole tennis game with Yuka did not exist in infinity, and some dialogue was changed, some of it to fit the additions to the story. more importantly, it adds new routes, one of them having the intention of presenting a whole new perspective on the story (and it does change everything), and infinity was completely abandoned by the developers.
infinity is simply an outdated version. Never7 -the end of infinity- is what this entry in the series is called now, and that's completely consistent from both the developers and the players. the original version is not the main version, it is a curiosity in history
Truth be told, I locked the entry on Infinity to make you seethe.
and yeah, how can you say this? you're not annoying some troll, you're making a change that nobody that knows the work is in favor of, and shutting down criticism. this just makes you sound like you guys are above reason
...is this amount of arguing not enough to realize that this change is maybe not actually a good thing? what is with this site
imagine if Resident Evil were an entry in VNDB, the titile "Biohazard" would be choosen because that was what released first by the dev, even though everyone in the world know the series as Resident Evil beside the Japanese.
completely different, "Biohazard" would be perfectly fine. Never7 -the end of infinity- is the official Japanese name of the game, there is no english version
#730 by beliar
2021-07-30 at 14:42
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Truth be told, I locked the entry on Infinity to make you seethe.
And yet no one bothers to notice that E added a smiley face, meaning why are you taking him seriously? The entry was locked because someone jumped the gun and yet again edited the entry while the discussion was not yet resolved, which wouldn't fly on any site.

That said, I'm close to convinced to leave the entry as "Never7". "Infinity" can be considered a prototype release, and as t8242.719 correctly said, rules shouldn't be applied indiscriminately, without taking context into account.

That said, you might as well start discussing Dies irae while we are at it. The calls to split the entry into two have been intermittently heard before, but t8242.702 reminded me of that. The 2007 version and 2009 version are pretty much different games altogether, so a split seems logical, though I want more opinions on that.
#731 by adamstan
2021-07-30 at 15:03
< report >If we're moving onto different games, I'd like to ask again for merging both chapters of White Album 2, as stated in t8242.483:
Since literally every (official) release besides the very first ones (r5750, r5751 and r15592) contains both parts (IC and CC), wouldn't it be better to merge White Album 2 ~Introductory Chapter~ and White Album 2 ~Closing Chapter~ into single "White Album 2" VN entry, with the abovementioned three releases marked as partials?

@beliar, you answered in t8242.485:
This seems like a reasonable proposal. Rather than Higurashi, this situation is most reminiscent of ef - a fairy tale of the two., which was also initially two VN entries, but was later merged into one.

I'll leave this open for discussion for now, and take care of it later if there aren't too many objections.

I don't recall there were objections, so perhaps they could be merged? It's indeed looking like the situation with ef. I'm only worried if it wouldn't make a mess when it comes to votes.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 15:04
#732 by phantom-zero-12
2021-07-30 at 15:09
< report >If we've come to a decision, then can a mod unlock Never7?
#733 by badspot
2021-07-30 at 15:39
< report >You can also bring back Infinity from deletion since the original Infinity page used to be there. No need to make anything new.Last modified on 2021-07-30 at 15:39
#734 by aexis
2021-07-30 at 18:27
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That said, you might as well start discussing Dies irae while we are at it. The calls to split the entry into two have been intermittently heard before, but t8242.702 reminded me of that. The 2007 version and 2009 version are pretty much different games altogether, so a split seems logical, though I want more opinions on that.

Dies Irae first version Also sprach Zarathustra is legendary levels of bad, they had 6 writers for 2 routes (Marie and Kasumi), and had a pretty awful reception.

Then they kicked all the writers and brought Masada to rewrite the whole thing plus 2 new routes and it elevated the game to "kamige" status and that's Acta est Fabula which later got a all-ages version with more content the Amantes amentes version.

So yeah they are basically completely different VNs, it definitely warrants a split.
#735 by gvbn
2021-07-31 at 10:15
< report >Is there a reason why Big Ass is not applicable

Surely these thighs can't go untagged link
#736 by beliar
2021-07-31 at 10:22
< report >Because after the trait was approved, it became clear that people use it for pretty much any character, majority of whom have an ass that is not significantly larger than normal. Believe me, you are not the first one to lament this trait, but it quickly became pretty much useless for the purposes of searching characters with big asses.

We tried to make a more precise description to help its application, but unlike with the current breast traits, we couldn't come up with anything useful and sane. :-(Last modified on 2021-07-31 at 10:22
#737 by vn-reader
2021-08-02 at 17:42
< report >I completely agree that Infinity is "non-canon" compared to Never7 and the other games in the series, however it makes no sense being set as Partial. The game was not sold as a demo, preview, or the first part of a divided game, no, it was sold as a complete game. This is the only release here in vndb that falsely uses the complete/partial info and it's simply not very rational. beliar says that the game can be seen as prototype, but that's only for the people who have completed Never7. Obviously, the publisher would not redistribute an actual prototype consciously.

This is the exact same situation as Chaos Head and Chaos Head Noah, it makes no sense Never7 not being an alternative version of Infinity despite the existence of the ultimate plot twist in the final route, which alters the perspective of the player in the VN's universe, as many have already said. I do not quite understand why Chaos Head Noah is an exception but Infinity is not. In my point of view, Never7 is an alternative version of Infinity, because of it's alternative ending, and Infinity Cure is a side story of the original Infnity. Currently, Infinity Cure is set as a side story of Never7, which makes no actual sense because the two routes of Infinity Cure are already integrated into all releases of Never7.

For naiohoras: I did not post on this thread before doing the edit because beliar (who was the person that did the edit) was the single person in this thread to suggest about setting Infinity as partial, (not saying that was wrong, but it was what happened), however you implied that this discussion was about that single change, but that's false, because in fact it was solely about changing the name of the entry from "Never7" to "Infinity". That's why I edited it without posting here first, and explained my reasoning on the comments of the edit itself rather than here. If more people here agreed to set it as partial instead of only the editor themselves, I would post here first, but that wasn't the case.
#738 by NaioHoras
2021-08-03 at 00:33
< report >first of all, it's worth taking a note that I'm still in 'splitting the vn entries' faction even now. I have not played the game, but judging by the vns' readers' arguments in this thread, it led me to believe that there are enough reasons to make the split.
and yes, Infinity was a as a complete version. and you probably know it already that I already mentioned that argument by myself before. however, seems like there are various other reasons which made that argument a weak one.

- not different enough in script, as the majority of the game seems to be practically the same. this is the most important one as this defines all entries in vndb. I personally think that the new true ending plus the additional routes are enough reason for making the split, even when the rest are the same. but apparently, it was not.
- short difference between release date. this could make the release to be treated similar to an update, but with drastic and more complete new experience.
- the new the true ending. while this is the reason why making the split is important, it also a strong argument to make the release as partial one, as it can be interpreted that infinity is a incomplete, or partial version. it;s like the dev itself says "hey, you know the game we made few moths ago which ending has disappointed you so much? you know what, they are non-canon! so you should buy this new version of it to get the actual true ending!"
- the fact that after that they always released the 'Never7' ver instead of 'infinity' ver, indicating that that Never7 is not a mere compilation fandisc, but a full version of the game, making infinity as obsolote, incomplete version.

thus it made sense to me that Infinity should be set as partial, if they can't be made as different entries.

after that lenghty discussion and various arguments regarding the split, the mod still convinced that it's still not worth it. their job is too follow the guidelines as much as possible and making a fewer exceptions as possible so the db is mostly consistent. and they have to decide what choice is the best for the db. so reverting the edit will make you, my good acquiantance of some obscure website, look like a self-centered person.
honestly, if you really want the split, we need another opinion about the matter.
as for your Chaos Head argument, apparently there are enough difference between those two if we go by this link link to warrant a split. I don't have a strong opinion in the matter since I have not played the game yet.Last modified on 2021-08-03 at 02:12
#739 by vn-reader
2021-08-03 at 01:45
< report >>and you probably know it already that I already mentioned that argument by myself before.
I didn't actually, must have missed it. My bad.

>short difference between release date
Well, Chaos Head Noah was released around 1 year later after Chaos Head too.

>the fact that after that they always released the 'Never7' ver instead of 'infinity' ver, indicating that that Never7 is not a mere compilation fandisc, but a full version of the game, making infinity as obsolote, incomplete version.
The same goes for Chaos Head and Chaos Head Noah, I guess.

>after that lenghty discussion and various arguments regarding the split
Again, the discussion was not about the split, it was about the name change of the entry from "Never7" to "Infinity".

>thus it made sense to me that Infinity should be set as partial
You did not say so, though.

>so reverting it the edit will make you, my good acquiantance of some obscure website, look like a self-centered person.
Look, I didn't do the edit for something such as attacking a mod. If that was my purpose, it would not make sense doing it on such a small change. I did the edit because the only person that actually agreed on this was the person themselves, and that's fine, so I gave my reasoning to why I think that setting Infinity as Partial did not make sense and was a contradiction to every other release here, in the edit itself, since the discussion here was about changing the entry's name, and not setting Infinity as Partial or Complete. However, you falsely said (and you are still staying) that setting Infinity as "Partial" was a reached consensus, and rudely criticized me for the edit. Setting Infinity as Partial wasn't the consensus, really. People only discussed about the name change. That's why I didn't bother to post on this thread first, and I am sorry if I somehow bothered you or anyone here on this thread, however I have never imagined that single edit would make such a ruckus, and next time, I will post my suggestions in threads that recently took place, even though my edit was not exactly directed to what was discussed here, as I have explained.

In the end, it feels like that the image that you have of me is of a contrarian, which is not true. Infinity being set as Partial does not bother me, and it's fine that the mods do not want it to be set as Complete. I merely did the edit that I thought was correct to not cause more confusion to anyone, and gave a good explanation on why beliar's edit wasn't a good one in the new edit itself, and did not post my suggestion first here because I didn't see how the edit that I was going to do was related to what has been discussed in this thread.
#740 by Lotuscale
2021-08-03 at 02:07
< report >I recalled such topic. Noah is indeed an ambiguous instance. I've accepted it as an exception against the "significantly rewritten" rule.
#741 by phantom-zero-12
2021-08-03 at 11:57
< report >I disagree with the argument that the scripts aren't different enough. While the first 4 routes only have some minor additions and changes in Never7 when compared to Infinity, there is of course the new true ending (plus one other added route) and 34 append stories that don't exist in Infinity.
#742 by slashslayer
2021-08-16 at 16:28
< report >so was this infinity discussion just forgotten, leaving the database with inconsistencies in some entries and that's it? no change or progress at all?
#743 by Ninius
2021-08-18 at 07:36
< report >Shouldn't Kazoku Keikaku's remake be split from the original?
#744 by adamstan
2021-08-18 at 08:37
< report >That depends on the degree of the changes to the scenario made for the Re:Tsumugu Ito versions. I haven't played those remakes, turned off by the new art style, so I cannot vouch for it.Last modified on 2021-08-18 at 08:38
#745 by slashslayer
2021-08-19 at 02:06
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after that lenghty discussion and various arguments regarding the split, the mod still convinced that it's still not worth it.

are there any moderators in this site open-minded enough to revise the infinity cure situation at least?Last modified on 2021-08-20 at 19:25
#746 by xiandora
2021-08-25 at 04:07
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are there any moderators in this site open-minded enough to revise the infinity cure situation at least?
For starters that's a pretty loaded way of phrasing the question, since it largely implies your stance is "definitely correct". Or as someone else might put it, very passive-aggressive.

That said, from what I gather from what I remember (having read the entire discussion), it sounds to me like it should exist as a 'partial' (incomplete) release. Afaik no legitimate entry should ever be completely removed from the site so it also shouldn't be completely deleted, and despite how the development turned out, it's a fact that the Infinity release exists - although it is essentially partial currently.. right?

I don't really see how it would cause much confusion to anyone that way, no one is ever going to go for any other version of a title over a complete release (barring patches/mods/etc), and anyone that actually cares enough will go looking for more information - some of which may be added to the page of said partial release, along with potential url to source or other site which can help explain/confirm it.

While there are likely arguments that could be made for keeping it as it's own entry, considering the circumstances it sounds more like a case of "finishing an unfinished product" rather than releasing a sequel or something along those lines. Cases like that are extremely rare in the first place from my own experiences.

Again, not played nor really taken part in the discussion thus far, just been reading it as I went along with notifications.Last modified on 2021-08-25 at 04:11
#747 by poudink
2021-08-25 at 13:02
< report >Infinity Cure's a fan disk that ended up being bundled with future releases, just like many other fan disks here. Nothing more, nothing less. There no reason to remove it. I'm not necessarily against the Never7 entry being renamed to Infinity, though.
#748 by slashslayer
2021-08-25 at 17:56
< report >#746
For starters that's a pretty loaded way of phrasing the question, since it largely implies your stance is "definitely correct". Or as someone else might put it, very passive-aggressive.

for starters that's a completely wrong interpretation since all i did was ask an inspection and consideration of my proposal that seemed to be just completely ignored once it was convenient for the only person who bothered to give me a reply, at least. if i really thought i was absolutely correct i'd just say for some moderator to apply what i suggested
that said, i still am sorry and beg your pardon if i sounded hostile because as i put it implicitly that's not my intention, which is in reality just more organization in the database

it's a fact that the Infinity release exists

yes, which is the ONLY """"""""""""Never7 release"""""""""" that does have a relation of a fan-disc with "Infinity Cure". besides that, Never7 has a much of a relation to it as it has to "Infinity" itself. i asked for a deletion of the entry because i wanted it to be replaced as a """"release of Never7"""(as legitimate as the "Infinity release" in the never7 page on this database). so yes, "Infinity Cure" will still have its existency acknowledged in this database, but as much as "Infinity", which i don't see as anything but fair

the most ironic part about it is that this fits perfectly with a point that was used in the "Chaos;Head/NoAH" discussion, which was "Only NoAH has relations to other titles of the series(such as Robotics;Notes and Chaos;Child), therefore, to put that C;H PC had relations with the other titles in the main entry page would be disinformative". and that also applies here; after all, implying that "Infinity Cure" is a bonus content to NEVER7 when it is as much as "Infinity" is to it is indeed misleading. although i'll confess that the current "Infinity Cure" description at least does a good job in avoiding misunderstanding

the point is: once one considers Never7 as something apart of "Infinity Cure", not doing the same to "Infinity" is contradictory. for example: once an user labels a real "Never7" release as obtained, both "Infinity Cure" and "Never7" titles are going to be included in such user's list, which is completely nonsensical. do you expect the users to vote and comment about Never7 on their lists and then do the exact same to Infinity Cure, which is an experience already completely included in the former?? what's the point? it's pure inconsistency and completely unviable

it's not a matter of "causing confusion", as you've put it, it's one of eliminating inconsistencies in the database in a way that absolutely no harm would be done. if it was about causing confusion they might as well separate "Rewrite+" from the "Rewrite" entry, it would also be inoffensive when it's about misunderstandings, but it would still directly go against this database established rules

Again, not played nor really taken part in the discussion thus far, just been reading it as I went along with notifications.
no problem, i can literally explain this in basic maths (with each number meaning a route):
Infinity = (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5)
Infinity Cure = (6 + 7)
Never7 = (1~7)
Infinity (1~5) + Infinity Cure (6 + 7) = Never7 (1~7)

as it's visible, "Infinity" is as much as a part and equivalent to "Never7" as "Infinity Cure", which, therefore, would mean:
-It makes sense to have 2 separates entries to "Infinity" and "Infinity Cure", having "Never7" just as the title of the releases that include both VNs
-It makes sense to have 3 separates entries to "Infinity", "Infinity Cure" and "Never7" IF the mods agree that literally playing "Infinity" and then "Infinity Cure" right away is a different experience from just playing "Never7" at all
-It makes sense(according to the logic already being currently applied as a rule) to have only ONE entry, "Never7", and have both "Infinity" and "Infinity Cure" as releases to such VN entry, after all, "Never7" is just the sum of both
-It does NOT make sense to have 2 separate entries if ANY of these are "Never7", after all, it would not only make the other one obsolete as it would also be redundant to force users to have both in their list even though they have the intention to do so with just "Never7"

yes, one can understand perfectly this situation without playing the game in question as well as it can be explained with simple math, you know why? because there's no interpretation as a factor here, there's not even subjectiveness, this is not a matter of opinions: having 2 separate entries if ANY of these are "Never7" while forcing the users to have the other entry in their lists as something apart, even though it is already included in the former, is:
-inherently a contradiction in its premises, as my previous statement can easily even remind a paradox gramathically
-self-destructive to the database, which has the objective of having no inconsistencies and to be the most organized possible
-easily correctable. as i said, there would be absolutely nothing lost in taking any of the suggestions i wrote. all information would still be here. the database would still be equally complete, except one undeniable inconsistency not being present in it anymore

#747
Infinity Cure's a fan disk that ended up being bundled with future releases, just like many other fan disks here. Nothing more, nothing less.
what a shame, then it seems that "Never7" must not be considered as a separate Visual Novel here, but a bundle release, such as Infinity Plus, Baldr Sky, The Great Ace Attorney Collection and many many others here in the database. it even seems that i have already suggested this in the discussion linked in my previous post here for all to read since such suggestion would also be perfectly consistent with this database rules, doesnt it? your point amounts to nothing
#749 by poudink
2021-08-26 at 00:00
< report >...Did you just complain about me agreeing with you?Last modified on 2021-08-26 at 00:06
#750 by slashslayer
2021-08-26 at 16:37
< report >it didn't seem you were trying to agree with me at all, if anything your phrasing implied you just wanted to deny my point, after all:
There no reason to remove it.