The how to edit thread

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#1076 by Ileca
2022-04-13 at 20:43
< report >Don't worry, it's probably because it was (logically) 8AM here and my head was still in my ass when I wrote that.
#1077 by Ezezin
2022-04-13 at 21:01
< report >
Yesterday I have added the amendment to the faq
Activated notifications on all FAQ pages, hopefully i won't miss them this time.

Ezezin and Naoihoras on the other.
Ehh, It's not that I have an strong opinion on this. As long as the guidelines are consistent, not confusing and people don't start ignoring them, I'm fine either way.

it's almost 4am here
Almost 18:00 here and I'm too sleepy to discuss anything else right now.Last modified on 2022-04-13 at 21:31
#1078 by Marc402
2022-04-13 at 21:08
< report >Alright we can continue the discussion later when the mods are back at full health, and add it to d2#2 when a consensus is reached.
#1079 by 4digitmen
2022-04-13 at 21:28
< report >#1070
The "story" is not even identical because console releases remove big chunks, and add new ones.
Unrelated, but just gonna jump in here and say that this isn't true by any metric, Rinne Saisei contains all the content from all previous releases including console releases, and adds new content on top of that. None, and I mean none, of the content was "butchered" or "censored," it is the exact same script, for better or worse, considering one of the routes is very clearly a product of its time, let's just say. Regardless, the main story (Mystery portion) is unchanged throughout all releases of Kamaitachi no Yoru, including the console releases. Your other statements are a matter of your own taste, but honestly the fact that you can so confidently speak on them as if you've played any version of the game is hilarious.

But obviously, not related to the thread, so continue.
In my opinion, the title in a translated language should be whatever edition was translated. It seems very arbitrary, but above all biased, especially given Ileca's tangent, that alternate/"remake" editions should not be put as the title.
As far as I can tell, "the remake isn't the original game because it's not the same experience" is a purely semantic statement not backed up by how the database is run. Remakes are only considered for another entry when their script is changed or rewritten significantly from the original. Visual or sound changes are largely disregarded and lumped into the same entry. Trying to appeal to "experience" is appealing to a whole other philosophy for which the website does not run under. The fact that an edition is under an entry means they are the same script. Thus, you should also consider the title of a remake to be representative of the original game (under the current database philosophy). So, if a remake is the only version that gets translated, their title gets slapped onto the entry, regardless of if it's the "original experience" or not.

Edit: If each visual/audio remake experience was deemed unique by the database rules, then each remake would get a separate entry. The situation would lean closer to what erogamescape has in place, but if the ruling was taken to an extreme (every experience is deemed unique, any change at all to a game is significant) then the edition system would get deleted and it would just become erogamescape. The point is that it's a different philosophy. The script is what's important.Last modified on 2022-04-13 at 21:36
#1080 by Marc402
2022-04-13 at 21:53
< report >
Remakes are only considered for another entry when their script is changed or rewritten significantly from the original.
They are only given another entry when the existing script is heavily changed. Several remasters/remakes remove and add content, and this can be a decisive factor as to whether the "spirit" of a game is retained for some people. Ileca does have a point there. You may not agree, but clearly some people do.Last modified on 2022-04-13 at 21:56
#1081 by 4digitmen
2022-04-13 at 22:00
< report >Yes, that is exactly what I said. Changed or significantly rewritten from the original. Again, they are appealing to the experience based on audio/visual changes (the example was Kamaitachi no Yoru, which is a visual/audio change) which the database does not consider significant for another entry. That isn't a point. People may agree, but the database is not built around that philosophy. If Yorhel decides that's the direction he wants to go in, that's up to him, but I don't think it's up to Ileca or Beliar.

Edit: Again, it's the script that's important. There are many releases that add or remove content but keep the "main story" intact, thus they are the same entry. What matters is the original script. Ileca appealed to "experience" and said "experience" was clearly referring to audio/visual changes. They state as such here:
Nobody would say that readers of Kamaitachi no Yoru and Kamaitachi no Yoru - Rinne Saisei had a remotely identical experience.
But their script is the exact same, as I already stated. The site considers the script significant, not the looks or sounds of the game. So, again, appealing to "experience" does not work.Last modified on 2022-04-13 at 22:06
#1082 by Marc402
2022-04-13 at 22:09
< report >
Again, they are appealing to the experience based on audio/visual changes (the example was Kamaitachi no Yoru, which is a visual/audio change)
Uh no, not just audiovisual changes, I wasn't specifically referring to Kamaitachi to Yoru. Several remasters/remakes cut and add content (I mean the text) and this is what i meant in my post.

Anyways, I still believe that if there is no translation of the original version, the title of remakes shouldn't be added (or at least the subtitle removed) simply to ensure uniformity between the titles of all languages. But let's see what the mods think when they're back after recharging their batteries.
#1083 by 4digitmen
2022-04-13 at 22:15
< report >Marc, I know. I acknowledged what you said. I am referring to Ileca's argument. I thought this was pretty clear.
#1084 by Ileca
2022-04-13 at 22:25
< report >What's hilarious is that I made a general statement about console releases adding and removing things and Rinne Saisei was only an example in the middle of my reasoning. What came after didn't apply specifically to Rinne Saisei. Read again.

The remake not being the original game is a semantic statement? Wtf? If that was a semantic statement, remakes wouldn't be remakes.
The rest is still sophistry. It's not because we gather a bunch of stuff together that it is the same stuff. It makes no sense. According to your logic, a DVD and a download are only diverging semantically. Yeah, right.
Using a way to organize things as an argument to say that two things put under the same umbrella are the same thing and should be treated identically is ridiculous at best.
Again, the visual not being taken into account is only a organization's limitation. Doesn't mean we should conclude it shouldn't count when talking about something entirely different like which title represent a VN. Especially when talking about visual novels.
Yes, you can question why releases that are not considered representative are under the same VN entry. That's a valid question but that's mostly due to, once again, the organization. We are not going to add VN entries for every butchered console release or Frankenstein's monster that is supposed to make us buy the game again ten years later. Doesn't mean they are equal citizens.

Edit: I read only up to t8242.1080.
Edit2: ok, nothing to add.Last modified on 2022-04-13 at 22:29
#1085 by 4digitmen
2022-04-13 at 22:55
< report >
Again, the visual not being taken into account is only a organization's limitation.
Source? Last I checked the database was made this way on purpose and tried to make it a point to have editions be like this. There's no "limitation" to the amount of entries or else there would be a bigger problem at hand.

Like, you're trying to literally change the website. The philosophy of the website is that what consititutes a separate entry is a significant change to the script. Visual and audio differences are lumped into the same entry. This is a fact on how the database is run. You are trying to add arbitrary differentiation within an entry based on...what? If it's labeled differently? If it's a remake? You haven't clearly defined anything. Remake in itself is an arbitrary definition. There are remakes on this very website for top VNs that are labeled the exact same as the original. So what happens then? The title doesn't get added because it's a remake, even though the title is the same as the original?

Look, I understand what you're trying to say, and I agree that the experiences are different, but this distinction is so unbelievably arbitrary and unnecessary. Just make the titles the ones that get translated. It's the simple solution.

Edit: I also must note that once again you're showing clear bias in your statement against any sort of remake or change to the original. Database decisions shouldn't be made on personal feeling but what is best for the database. I understand hating Frankstein's monsters, but to deny their existence is the same as to deny the purpose of a database.Last modified on 2022-04-13 at 23:03
#1086 by Ileca
2022-04-14 at 00:27
< report >If you need sources (as if you didn't need to give us a source too, when all you do is just interpreting the current organization), search the board for when splitting was decided. Nowhere it will say that "visuals are not important to a visual novel". It probably just states that splitting using visual will split our heads at the same time because spawning too many entries. Dat simple. Organizational thing, pragmatic solution, no "philosophy". Many do not even agree that this is how it should be done. That we should have a release based database. Etc. This is a pretty controversial issue, not a "philosophy". If we could split by visual without making too much of a mess, we would have done it!

We already decide to discriminate against new titles which are also a property of releases. See, we made an arbitrary decision, inside the same VN entry that new titles were less representative than old titles. We do the same with official/unofficial.

Sure, I am biased against remakes. I never said the opposite, I even said I should probably be ignored. But you didn't...

Remakes titles are already put at the bottom of the stack when it comes to choosing. If they would have to be ignored entirely, it would be based on the same rules. What constitute a remake, do you ask? I would say:
-cut content
-significant change of visual aka not tracing
Maybe also:
-different cast

What's the problem with not having an English title from a remake that will end up having the same title as the original anyway? You can fallback on the original if you want.
#1087 by 4digitmen
2022-04-14 at 00:39
< report >
I even said I should probably be ignored
It's extremely hard to ignore you when you're actively making database changes based on those very biases. Sadly, this is the reality we live in. I legitemately cannot see any other reason for why it is the way it is other than "I don't see remakes as the original game thus their existence isn't important and their titles don't matter." Like, you actually just haven't given one logical argument for why it should be this way.
Unless I'm reading this way wrong, the Utawarerumono entry has to be like this now: v3.100, v3.101, v3.102 which makes no sense to anybody, but go ahead I guess?Last modified on 2022-04-14 at 00:45
#1088 by Ileca
2022-04-14 at 00:50
< report >I don't remember removing any titles yet. Another one of your unfounded accusations?
#1089 by 4digitmen
2022-04-14 at 00:54
< report >
Another one of your unfounded accusations?
d2.24 You did this minutes ago. But, sure, call me a liar, it's better than actually acknowledging anything I'm saying.

Edit: I never said you removed titles. I said database changes. Please read what I'm actually typing, it's right there. You can't mishear written words.Last modified on 2022-04-14 at 00:55
#1090 by Ileca
2022-04-14 at 01:15
< report >Yeah, because when we think of the database, we think the FAQ, right. Because the FAQ is a database object you can query on SQLPad or as a filter. It makes so much sense, mister semantics.
Even on that point you are simply being dishonest: I fixed Beliar's words, who is the one who added those lines, according to what I think he meant. If he really meant remasters, not remakes, he will revert back, but I doubt he targeted remasters because I don't see a reason to skip remasters. This is not me trying to rewrite the rules to my liking, this is me fixing a mistake made by someone else. So yeah, it's an unfounded accusation.
#1091 by 4digitmen
2022-04-14 at 01:29
< report >That's cool. Now try actually acknowledging the example I pointed out a couple messages ago. I think that's a better use of both our times instead of you continuing to point out petty bullshit in my messages because you feel personally offended. I can continue if you like, but it'd inevitably end with you deleting my messages.
#1092 by NaioHoras
2022-04-14 at 03:03
< report >guys, don't overcomplicate things. the reason I said this in #1064
we seperate VN depending on how different the script between releases. so when there's an argument that Remaster title should not be included as alternative title, here comes a question: what's the difference? why we discriminate against Remaster and a kind? the main title of a VN entry means to represent the story, the scripts. so in the end, they are literally the same thing.
I get Beliar's reasoning to choose the first complete release as the alternative title: so we don't constantly change title whenever a new release comes out. if you agree that Remake title should be removed, then you are basically telling that Remake is a different VN entirely, thus admitting that cosmetic upgrade is very differrent and should have a different entry.
was to give people the idea that "vn entry is a story unit" and case like v1377.74 won't happen again, which I clarified in #1069. I mean, why would you neglect remaster when the only change is anything but the script? okay, maybe a little change in the script here and there might happen, but there will always different experience whenever you play different edition of a VN (excluding duplicate release such as regular and download), especially remaster; a simple visual change, text addition, and what not will give player a different experience each time, a minor or significantly, and there's no helping it. but that's not what I'm talking about.
while I get that experience is important, we should not change vn title based on that alone. isn't that why we choose the "first complete release" in the first place? so people won't get "damn, this release is better than the other one. better change the title to that one release to show how brilliant it is!"
I admit that I oversimplified thing when I said "the same thing", but in the end, they are still a story unit. you get the idea now.

in fact, why do we have this alternative title feature in the first place? so people can see VN title in their native language, right? then why go unlisting alternative title just because it's a remake? it's basically against the law of physics the initial intention.

anyway, I presented what I want and what I can compromise in #1069, and it seems Beliar agreed with me in #1071 (assuming he was replying to me, looking at the timestamp of Ileca's post #1070 and him #1071 plus the content of his post), and honestly, I don't want to give more than that.Last modified on 2022-04-14 at 03:15
#1093 by Ileca
2022-04-14 at 03:30
< report >
Remaster refers to changing the quality of the sound or of the image, or both, of previously created recordings, either audiophonic, cinematic, or videographic.

Remastering a video game is more difficult than remastering a film or music recording because the video game's graphics show their age. This can be due to a number of factors, notably lower resolutions and less complicated rendering engines at the time of release. A video game remaster typically has ambience and design updated to the capabilities of a more powerful console, while a video game remake is also updated but with recreated models.

You guys are talking about remakes, not remasters. Confusing.
Remastering a VN is upscaling graphics, using better audio recording. Updating the quality without changing it fundamentally, to fit our new machines' capabilities.
Remaking a VN is drawing new graphics, rewriting the script, etc. You recreate the VN, wholly or partly, by changing its content fundamentally, to fit 💀💀modern taste💀💀.Last modified on 2022-04-14 at 03:36
#1094 by Manoman13
2022-04-14 at 07:12
< report >Hello, I'm trying to add the codes so that people can play the 18 and 18+ version as well as our other social networks, but my modifications are still refused.
I don't understand what I have to do to accept it.

link

English is not my native language, I tried to read all the rules and understand them but I admit that I am lost.
#1095 by Marc402
2022-04-14 at 07:19
< report >Codes and other technical info should be in the release notes, not the vn description. And social media links should be on your developer page. One of the mods has already moved these to the appropriate places, though.
#1096 by Ileca
2022-04-14 at 07:19
< report >Your codes were added to the release: r88824. This is not something you put on the main page as it clutters it.
As for your links, they were added to your producer page: Awake.
I can speak French if you want.
#1097 by Manoman13
2022-04-14 at 09:25
< report >Ok well thank you very much to both of you, you have informed me well, thank you also to those who put the links and code in the right place.
I'll try my best to do things well when I update the game in a few weeks, otherwise I'll come ask you for help (sorry in advance xD)
#1098 by beliar
2022-04-14 at 15:17
< report >@Ileca: I personally use the name "remaster", because for me a "remake" is something that is fundamentally different from the original. On VNDB I only consider the titles we give new VN entries due to severe rewrites to be remakes. Everything less than that I call a "remaster" regardless of how it's labeled by the publisher. But I understand it's just my personal naming.

Anyway, let's imagine a situation where a VN entry contains an original game and its remake. Let's sum up the various naming convention situations here and see what we can divine (taking EN translations into account).

The original game has a single translation, whether official or not
We obviously use the name of the existing translation. Example: v417

The original game has an official and an unofficial translation
We use the name of the official translation. Example: v7014

The game has translations both for the original and the remake versions
We use the name of the original's translation, whether it's official or not. Example: v3

Only the game's remake is translated, but the only thing separating its title from the original's is an addition of a clarifier, like "remake", "plus", etc.
We use the name of the translation, but drop the edition clarifier. Of course here we have another minor discussion what can be considered an edition clarifier

Only the game's remake is translated, and its title is significantly different from the original
Well... here is the crux of the discussion. I already expressed my agreement with Ileca that if a title of a remake is not significantly different from the original, there is probably no reason not to add it, as is a case with Himawari.

However, what to do where a remake title is very different from the original's? It would create a strange discrepancy in the Vn titles, and might confuse people to think that the whole Vn entry pertains only to the remake. Should we add the title wholesale, add it without a subtitle if one exists, or not add it at all? That's quite a question.

My personal opinion is that such titles shouldn't be added, as they poorly represent the whole VN entry and only pertain to a subset of releases.

This sums up the current discussion, so that it wouldn't go off track.
#1099 by NaioHoras
2022-04-14 at 15:43
< report >
Only the game's remake is translated, and its title is significantly different from the original
do we have any example? can't think of any myself.Last modified on 2022-04-14 at 15:43
#1100 by beliar
2022-04-14 at 15:55
< report >I cannot think any out of the top of my head, that wouldn't fall under one of the previous rules. We could theorize though.

Let's take a theoretical situation where Utawarerumono only has a translated remake Utawarerumono: Prelude to the Fallen. In such a situation we would have a few courses of action described above. Add the remake title wholesale, remove the subtitle "Prelude to the Fallen", treating it as a clarifier, or not add the title at all. I would personally choose either option 2 or 3. Not sure which one.