This VN isn't even good (spoilers)

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#1 by sovapex
2016-10-23 at 22:52
< report >No idea why it's so well liked. I read up to the Beta Rape scene, then dropped it, read a summary and was baffled.

Firstly, the protagonist sucks. He starts off great. He's a marty stu and you root for him because we've become invested in a world that has little to no chance, but then one little thing goes wrong and he goes down a path of angsty crying. And he never shuts the fuck up with his internal dialogue. 24/7 he's repeating obvious shit or raging inside his head or something.

Secondly, far too slow pace.

Thirdly, the plot is garbage. It doesn't go anywhere. And the deaths are just there for shock value. 90% of the deaths were of characters who were not developed nor even slightly compelling at all, and whenever there was a death of a developed character, they were usually developed in one of the earlier games.

Fourth, shock value. The chomp scene was the only death scene that had any significance, since an entire horrible arc was based around it. Everyone else just died randomly and had little impact on the story on their way out. Hell, they didn't even serve as development for anyone else, with the exception of the one Captain lady, and that was so forced and spontaneous I wouldn't be surprised if it cost someone their job.
Speaking of shock value, let's talk about the Beta Rape scene. It was utterly retarded. What, the beta for some reason decided it wanted to know what would make a girl moan? Not a dude, though, right? Because who cares about that. Yes, let's do all that then harvest her brain for no reason.
Doesn't help that Sumika sucks as a character and even that fate wasn't enough to make anyone care about her.

Fifth, infodumping. Self-explanatory. Even if you disagree with every other little thing I say, this is simply an undeniable fact.
Exposition is supposed to be weaved into a dialogue, not fed to you like you're in a classroom. Shit feels like work half the time, and when you're nodding off when important information that you need to hear is being told to you.. well, that's obviously not good at all.

Sixth, romantic interests. Why give us all these options and characters to explore with in the last games and then force us into a relationship with the most generic and insipid character ever created? A character that has NO depth, even in the original. A character that has no likes or interests that are not Takeru related? A character that whines, complains and is only useful due to a power that is not her own? A character two steps from becoming a Yandere, and yet even that somehow prevents her from becoming the least bit compelling.
Yeah. Fuck her.

Seventh, characters were horrible, yo. Like, really bad. They developed well enough in the original slice of life VN, but practically nothing happened with them in Alternative. I forgot they existed half the time. Like Amane and her boyfriend that was, like, twice her age? Where did that go, again, when he staged the Coup De Tat? What interaction did they have? How did that impact her?
It didn't do shit.

And finally, Angst. So. Much. Angst. Takeru is always screaming and nobody inside of his head, and even outside of his head infront of people, creating awkward atmospheres. The one point where I was like "Oh, this dude is awesome" was in the retelling of the scene where those two jealous soldiers sock the crap out of him. He embarassed himself in Unlimited, but took the situation like a champ in Alternative.
Where did that Takeru go? The dude who was willing to get beaten the hell out of to get shit down, and stay calm throughout the whole thing? He was awesome, and he didn't stick around long.
You niggas thought Shirou from Fate Stay/night was embarassing? Lmfao.

Yeah, so, the only halfway good thing about Muv Luv was it's worldbuilding. Why this is so popular is beyond me.
#2 by thefreeloader
2016-10-24 at 09:27
< report >Your ramblings or whatever you call this is invalid because your username is racist.
#3 by emir7
2016-10-24 at 09:35
< report >@ thefreeloader
You just registered today, you shouldn't be disrespectful in your first post.
#4 by thefreeloader
2016-10-24 at 09:40
< report >Oh yeah.Sorry. I excited...My apologies..
#5 by pendelhaven
2016-10-24 at 09:42
< report >

warning, leftism has now invaded the safe space that is vndb. prepare your trigger warnings. and this is why I never wanted VNs to go mainstream, but alas, this too is unavoidable.Last modified on 2016-10-24 at 09:43
#6 by alexlung
2016-11-06 at 02:14
< report >sounds legit from someone who made the same thread on steam and then the thread got locked.

so he came here to whine about it on vndb rofl.

i don;t think anyone cares.
#7 by sakurakoi
2016-11-06 at 05:54
< report >I dream of a world where for once the points are simply addressed and not disregarded for whatever handy excuse...

and I dream of a world where I can drink out of a toilet bowl without getting rashes, I guess that one is more likely.
#8 by gabezhul
2016-11-06 at 08:02
< report >^ What points are there to be addressed? This is not a discussion, this is a rant by a single person who came here to went their frustration. They don't ask questions, they just state their minority opinion on a website filled with fans of the work they criticize. There is no room for a reasonable discussion here, and I believe everyone above have already recognized this, thus we have a pissing-fest instead of a flamewar with pages of bullet-point based angry rebuttals, and to be honest, I prefer it this way.
#9 by pendelhaven
2016-11-06 at 09:07
< report >gabe, I think that's satire of some sort. I mean...

drink out of a toilet bowl without getting rashes
#10 by kiru
2016-11-06 at 10:44
< report >There really are plenty of reasons why Muv-Luv is anything but good, but it has its fans. I just think the game(s) have no middle-ground. Either you like them, or you don't. Like AT ALL.

I'm not going to address these points, as I've not really read much of MLA (15 hours or so), and wasted most of my time on MLE+MLU, but at the very least with one thing I can agree: The characters mostly suck. But that was all masterfully done by MLE. I don't think I'll ever be able to understand how you can get out of MLE NOT hating most of the cast. But alas. MLU still kinda worked until the second half where it hurt quite a bit. And MLA I just couldn't stomach anymore when the flashbacks of MLE scenes became too rampant. It was like the game wanted to make me quit.

Regardless, if a "rant" wants discussion, it shouldn't be written as a rant I guess.
#11 by noirx
2016-11-06 at 13:07
< report >#10 Yet, the discussion goes on~
#12 by overmage
2016-11-06 at 16:32
< report >who brought /jp/ to vndb?

*le enlightened my-opinions-differ-from-the-masses-and-are-supreme-tip(
#13 by clowred
2017-02-19 at 20:16
< report >... Bittersweet is not enough to describe this VN. I can understand the reason for making it, but ... in some sense it feels useless to read everything. Its a VN for fuck sake .. we expect some sort of closure. Not dumping everything on one character. I don't think that there is anyone in this world reading a novel, a visual novel or anything else that is fictional because he likes to see just how fucked up reality can be. We want to see an ending where a miracle happens, where those that suffer the most can be rewarded... This novel is good, actually I can produly say its a masterpiece.. but its useless as entertainment. It deserves its first place in the rankings, but it also can be called the worst experience for those that just want to find something more than just how deep can despair can be.
#14 by vorathiel
2017-02-20 at 07:08
< report >Keep your opinion to yourself. You can express it, but not impose this on people around you.

Entartainment could mean basically anything. I'm entertained when I read a story about despair, and ending provides me with bittersweet emotions (see: Swan Song). I hate when dramatical, bittersweet VN is suddenly turning into happy end extravaganza (See: Swan Song as well).

So MLA ending was fine for me. Only fine, because final infodumping could be much better writen than 'suddenly - exposition'. But happy ending, when everybody is rewarded for their strugles would ruin this game for me.
#15 by clowred
2017-02-20 at 07:27
< report >Keep your opinions to yourself ... I don't remember forcing you to read it and I also haven't expressed a negative general opinion. My personal one may be slightly negative but the general one is full of praise. Have you fallen into the disease known as tunnel vision? The reason I said that I expected to see them rewarded is because most of the drama is extremely forced. And I agree with the OP when it comes to Sumika. Somehow from 6 billion killed and maybe at least hundred of thousands of human taken captives, Sumika was the one to be raped by tentacles .. which makes me cringe hard as hell, and she was also the only one to survive as a brain. Makinh her the BETA bitch is just another forced way to make the reader feel even more simpathy. Remember this, BETA don't see humans as living beings. So now tell me, would you try to jerk off a chair?Last modified on 2017-02-20 at 09:35
#16 by thajunk
2017-02-20 at 14:19
< report >Are spoiler tags broken or something? And it seems like the flame war was inevitable.

^^^ There were a lot more than just her to suffer that fate, she's just the only main character to do so. Which is understandable.

The 'forced' drama... well i can see where you coming from but with the dreary setting the grimdark stuff is inevitable rather than forced.
#17 by formis
2017-02-20 at 16:53
< report >@15 clowred
"Keep your opinions to yourself" ... I don't remember forcing you to read it...
One has to read the posts to be able to respond to the conversation/thread, then they may want to express their opinion on what they read. It's difficult to "unread" things.

And I believe vorathiel was referring to this bit:
... I don't think that there is anyone in this world reading a novel, a visual novel or anything else that is fictional because he likes to see just how fucked up reality can be. ... but it's useless as entertainment. ...
Which can be seen as "speaking" for everyone in the world in extreme cases. Using 'most people' and 'usually' is better since there are always exceptions. (I do realize this might border on political correctness though)

And I agree with the OP when it comes to Sumika. Somehow from 6 billion killed and maybe at least hundred of thousands of human taken captives, Sumika was the one to be raped by tentacles...
Wasn't it implied that similar experiments were performed on all their prisoners? Even if it wasn't I think it's a reasonable conclusion to reach in the given situation. They were trying to figure out how the human "machine" worked, same as humans tried to figure out how BETA worked and how to communicate with them, or to kill them.
It's likely the BETA were performing all kinds of experiments on different prisoners/control groups and it so happened that Sumika was one of those who were subjected to extreme pleasure stimuli (though circumstance/coincidence is generally not the best storytelling tool). I highly doubt she was the only one experimented on that way.

I also doubt they were purposely trying to "jerk off" what they considered a "machine". Considering they themselves were just biological machines constructed by some alien race unknown to us they may not even be aware of the concept.

All that being said, I do acknowledge that the scene ended up mostly as just an unnecessary tentacle rape. They could've presented it as more methodical and less porn-y, but unnecessary porn/fanservice scenes are an issue of the entire medium (manga/anime/eroge), not just MLA.

@16 thajunk
The thread is marked as being spoiler-y in the title, if people can't read no amount of spoiler tags will save them. Though, if people can't read the lack of spoiler tags is harmless anyway. But I will edit my post if mods deem it necessary.Last modified on 2017-02-20 at 16:59
#18 by mirrored
2017-05-29 at 04:12
< report >Look dude.

You do not really offer as strong of a foundation for your opinions as you think and your arguments are not particularly compelling, in fact, many of them contradict themselves and do not hold, just based on what you alone have written.

On Takeru. Takeru is a guy from a world where he is constantly faced with harem nonsense and almost everything is comedy. The biggest risk Takeru faces before coming to the Unlimited world is a lacrosse tournament arc. He is from a place with no danger, risk, or severity and thus completely without the tools or strength to deal with a world that is ceaselessly violent and heading towards its end. To come from that to being a pivotal nexus of the effort to save the world took a lot. He runs everyday, takes life very seriously, and he begins to think that he can save the world without losing anyone he loves-- but then he does.

Marimo's death shakes him so of course he runs away-- if you could escape that world, you would probably want to do that as well. Of course, this backfires and he returns with the resolve to save the world. That does not mean he will not be traumatized by the death of his comrades-- he is. They are lost constantly. You did not make it all the way through, which is unfortunate, but that's your call chief.

Am I a huge fan of Takeru? No, but he worked really hard, had a lot of flaws, and managed to keep going.

On Pacing-- After the initial 8 hours there is barely time to breath. Things keep coming. There is like one lull in Ch7-9 area if I remember correctly, but other than that it is a pretty wild ride. I think pacing was incredible-- if you discount having to read extra/unlimited. Those are quite slow and flawed works, but that is not Alternative's problem.

Plot. The plot is awesome and you are not paying attention. Most of the details were probably lost on you. There is a lot of foreshadowing, well developed political situations, many provocative stories, and the connections between Extra and Alternative are amazing. Plot is a strength, I think you just didn't get it.

On Shock Value. You missed a ridiculous amount of foreshadowing. No clue what to say here, perhaps, read more carefully. Rape scene was important as it explains Sumika's initial state, the trauma she recovers from, and her fears concerning Takeru's love. She is also best girl-- she entirely believes a very outlandish story and goes through huge lengths to try to remember him-- she is perhaps defined by her love for Takeru, but that is a huge part of who a person is anyways. She is a great girl and I think you were just mad that some of the other great girls were left out.

Infodumping. They are in classroom lectures anyways and I do not feel the infodumping is excessive. It also answers a lot of questions you should have. I think that you credit the world-building but then complain about infodumps is contradictory.

Romantic Interests. You do not like Sumika, we get it. The thing is, Alternative and the setting/world are Sumika's story really. It would not be the same work otherwise. She also makes the least selfish choice possible in the end, it appears. But you did not get there and just read a summary.

Characters. Characters were great-- the differences and similarities between them in the Extra and Alternative worlds were awesome. This was a strength-- I am sorry you did not empathize with them, you seemed to have been so mad about Sumika that you stopped caring.

Angst. See earlier comments on Takeru. I am not sure how many people you have seen die in your life, but it is really traumatic. Watching someone die by violent means in real life is jarring. Constantly losing people you care about is also painful. Of course there will be angst, he is also a teenage boy and they are not exactly pillars of stoicism.

You complain about Gary Stu, but then get something else and complain more. I think your whole post can really be summed up with "I hate Sumika and went on a tyrannic rampage after".

If you want your criticism or words to reach us, you need to find better specific issues, you speak in such generalities and the specifics you point out are things that are either obviously wrong, or obviously not common opinion.

MLA is an awesome story about Love and Courage. The only shitty part was having to read Extra and Unlimited, but they were vital to investing in the characters. I encourage you to reread it at some point in your life when you are more receptive to it, and less reactionary.
#19 by pendelhaven
2017-05-29 at 06:55
< report >Reading this several years ago my opinions on this VN has changed a lot.

What was the end game for Takeru had gained for all the Gary Stu prowess he had? Adults ultimately using him to their own benefit.
Was there any sort of "change" he ultimately received for all the efforts he had done? little to no value at all.
Was his efforts in vain? a big yes.
What did I gained for all this? I'm just a tiny speck of dust in the grander picture.
What about Sumika then? depending on your perspective she's the most selfish out there or the least. How I see it is that she's just grasping for straws. Not surprising since everyone does.
#20 by garvin-chives
2017-06-09 at 07:02
< report >muv luv is indeed pretty bad once you put feels aside and analyze it. Like i feel like it could been so much better if the author could actually focused on what matters and not infodump me all the way to a very unsatisfying ending. The presentation and charcters were nothing special at all as well this vn shoulda been anime seeing how much it cares about flashy movement and not caring about good text .

I dearly hope this leaves the number 1 spot on vndb, theres a lot of shams and blatant overrating in the otaku community, but this is by far the worst offender
#21 by suika-music
2017-06-09 at 14:28
< report >@garvin
Except that's just your opinion and doesn't mean MLA is necessarily a "sham" or "blatantly overrated." The presentation is the best part about the game and its novel usage of sprites hasn't been matched by any visual novel ever since. Not even anime could reproduce the epic-scale fights in MLA without the sprites and such. It's a story that can only be told in VN form.

The infodumps were necessary to build up the world around you and since MLA is a first-person experience it makes the immersion that much better. The worldbuilding and immersion are what makes the MLA experience so unique and incredible, and besides, Yuuko makes them interesting in their own right and the infodumps are counterbalanced by unbelievable action sequences that no other VN has attempted.

Additionally, putting aside feels is definitely the wrong way to evaluate the story. If you really think you can evaluate this game without factoring in emotion weight go ahead and be my guest, but the visceral experience MLA gives you is unparalleled in all of fiction.

The presentation and charcters were nothing special at all as well this vn shoulda been anime seeing how much it cares about flashy movement and not caring about good text .
Did we read the same VN? Because MLA is known for its presentation above all else as well as the psychological depth and heroism of its characters. Furthermore, the PTSD arc is perhaps the most visceral story arc in any visual novel and nothing like it has ever been written since.

I dearly hope this leaves the number 1 spot on vndb, theres a lot of shams and blatant overrating in the otaku community, but this is by far the worst offender
Seems to me that you're just salty and don't like to see others enjoy something you can't, being unable to stand that something you hate has such a high rating.Last modified on 2017-06-09 at 14:29
#22 by dabackpack
2017-08-04 at 08:20
< report >Takeru is to visual novels what Shinji Ikari is to anime. If you don't like Takeru, there's a good chance it's because you see yourself in him.

I would strongly argue that Muv-Luv Alternative is, fundamentally, a criticism of otaku culture. Takeru, a character who is everything every otaku wants to be --- attractive, charming, drowning in pussy --- is thrown into a world where those traits do not help him at all.

In Alternative, the traits that matter are determination, mental fortitude, and strength of character. Takeru, the otaku vehicle, is forced to learn these traits before he can succeed in the hellish environment he is thrown into.

With this lens, MLA is nothing short of brilliant in how it conveys one of its central themes: "you have to be willing to emotionally grow in order to prosper and you cannot rely on escapism."

This is, of course, on top of all the compelling political and social drama that occurs in the story.

To say that MLA is "dumb" or "lacks depth" betrays your inability to understand what's actually happening.Last modified on 2017-08-04 at 08:22
#23 by sovapex
2017-08-04 at 14:37
< report >+dabackpack No, I mean, I already stated why I don't like him. If you want to just ignore what I'm saying, then you're literally talking to someone who doesn't exist.
Anyhow, even if what you're saying is true and there is depth here with all the shock horror and failing character development, you have to demonstrate it. I listed examples, I see none in your post.
#24 by sovapex
2017-08-04 at 15:17
< report >+mirrored

This doesn't tell me anything. All it does it explain why he's so annoying and ridiculously unlikable. I understand the situation he's in, I just don't forgive him for his annoying nature. At the end of the day, someone is writing him. He doesn't have to be so frustrating and the fact that he is shows the skill of the writer. He's in our lens more than most Protagonists because all of his thoughts are fed directly to us

Yeah, I said that. Marimo's death was the only death I can think of so far (and I did get pretty far, I believe) that actually had any weight to it. It pushed Takeru to develop. Fine. That's cool. I can accept that.
What I'm saying is, most of these deaths are just cardboard cutouts with a couple of quirks in place of any actual interesting character. Nobody else develops. Nobody else is slightly interesting. The hilarious thing is the VN actually TRIES to make these deaths have some impact. Before the deaths of the Captain and the blue haired chick, both of them try to emotionally connect to Takeru and the reader by extension. Of course, that didn't work for me because they're trash characters, but hey.

Okay, back to Takeru. I don't understand what you're trying to say with him. My main problem is that he is completely unlikable and his interior monologue constantly F's with the pace of the story. No matter what apologetics you come up with for his character, this is always going to be the case unless you throw a patch at me.

This just isn't true. The pacing never gets better unless it does past the point I'm at. I got to end of the fight right after Sumika. All the way up until that point is constant digressions and infodumps and other such tripe.

Eh, more of this 'you don't get it' stuff. What a cowardly dodge. Why don't you explain, that's what the fuck you replied for, right?

Again with the missed it crap. "No clue what to say", maybe explain where I missed foreshadowing? I'm beginning to wonder why you even replied. All I see are platitudes. Every time you come close to something that even resembles a rebuttal to my claims, it's always 'you didn't get it' and then you move on.
Beta Rape was shock value. Beta rape didn't have to happen. Beta rape didn't even make sense, because why do all this to Sumika when it's stated several times that the Beta don't even see people as things? Hell, why do it just to Sumika and not to Takeru? Is there an explanation? I've discussed this specific part several times and I've yet to hear one.
I am defined by my love for someone? No, I'm not. Nobody is. This is an asspull statement, another apologetic of how one dimensional and boring Sumika is. She's not great, she sucks. Even in Muv Luv Extra she sucks. Everyone else had at least SOMETHING going on with their characters, all except Sumika.

'Just read a summary' as if I did myself a disservice dropping something I absolutely loathe.

Bro, Sumika didn't even show up till later. And what is this shitty rebuttal anyway? "You think the characters are bad? Well they're not". Honestly, why did you even reply? You don't have shit to say. You're just mad, clearly. I don't mind admitting I'm mad. After all, I played through Extra and Unlimited just to play an even worse Visual Novel that a bunch of idiots with no standards upvoted the fuck out of. It's clear you were all emotionally manipulated.

More platitudes.

Firstly, even if that were true, so what. I've stated several reasons why I don't like Takeru and being a Gary Stu was only one of them. And how did he change from a Gary Stu? His problems that lead to his Character Development were entirely self-made anyhow. Marimo didn't die because of him, but he gets it in his head that she did. When she didn't. At all. But this doesn't even matter because he's still annoying as fuck. And what is your obsession with my dislike of Sumika. Most of my hatred is on Takeru, trust me.

Oh, right, and you don't, do you? You don't just brush away what I say with 'you don't get it'. If you had paid as much attention to the VN as you tell me to, then you'd easily have seen most of what I said to have a point. Instead you want to be dismissive.

I won't ever read this trash again, because whilst I am on a never ending ordeal to understand and replicate good writing, I know trash writing when I see it. I advise you to come back when you've quit being a pseudo-intellectual and can speak on a legit basis. In fact, I'll be honest, I'm probably never coming to this page again because I'm likely going to forget about it like I did immediately after I posted my original post. So here:

Wirral, UK

That's my steam name. Add me and talk to me, and we'll see how far you get diverting everything I say in realtime.Last modified on 2017-08-05 at 00:53
#25 by pendelhaven
2017-08-04 at 18:30
< report >
Firstly, even if that were true, so what. I've stated several reasons why I don't like Takeru and being a Gary Stu was only one of them. And how did he change from a Gary Stu?

from MLU. yes, MLU was a "cheat code" or sorts for the events for MLA.

Marimo didn't die because of him, but he gets it in his head that she did.

it kind of did actually. indirect, but still. I don't remember the details but iirc "if only Takeru wasn't a whiny bitch they wouldn't be staying outside that long".