The protagonist

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#76 by desertopa
2017-06-13 at 17:10
If you can find a list of top selling visual novels of all time, I'd appreciate it, since I've been looking these up piecemeal. I might be wrong. But while I'm not impressed with what I've read of their work, I don't think that most Yuzusoft protagonists could be described as undistinguished everymen like Hatsukoi 1/1's protagonist. "Has special powers" or "has lots of skills from a wide array of part-time jobs" aren't sparkling personality traits, but they're not elements of fantasies about being showered with attention from attractive people despite not having any exceptional qualities either.

The industry has definitely shifted towards a higher prevalence of moege, where characters like the one in this game are more common. But average sales per game have also gone way down since the 2000's, so this wasn't necessarily the most profitable direction for the industry to have gone.
#77 by kzel
2017-06-13 at 17:54
Yuzusoft's protagonists all tend to fit the generally "nice guy" approach. They may have a few quirks added but they don't stray too far from the mold. At the very least they are not bad guy in any means. If anything, they are more standard than Hatsukoi 1/1's ultimate donkan.

If you're interested in sales rankings, you can check monthly data by Tech Gian here : link

Unsurprisingly, Yuzusoft and Clochette, both making moeges with typical "nice guy" protagonists, win with a good margin. You'll be hard pressed to find anything with a bad guy in the lead in the top 3.
#78 by desertopa
2017-06-13 at 18:27
Is there a way to get data on top all-time sellers? Since the average sales have gone down over time, it would be easier if there's somewhere I can find them ordered by total sales ever, rather than top sales at a particular time.

As I see it though, there's a big difference between a "nice guy" protagonists like, say, Fujushima Takumi or Okonogi Masaya, and Katagiri Yuuma from this game. Yuuma gets called a "nice guy" because there's hardly anything else you can say for him. He doesn't have any notable skills, interests or personal strengths, isn't especially thoughtful or smart, he's not funny, according to his own description he's not especially good looking...

I'm happy to see protagonists with something original about them, or some really deep characterization to explore, but still, I won't fault authors for writing a protagonist who's essentially a nice, morally upright person. What I see as a real weakness in the writing is when the protagonist is someone who the audience would have no interest in exploring a relationship with if you wrote the story from another character's perspective. If Maya were the protagonist of this game, and Yuuma were one of multiple potential love interests, I think players would wonder what the point of even including him was.

Personally, I don't even like "bad guy" protagonists. They're just not to my taste (although I can go for a good redemption story now and then.) But at least there are a lot of ways to write a strong story around one, whereas a character who has almost no distinguishing traits doesn't leave you with much to work with.Last modified on 2017-06-13 at 18:27
#79 by kzel
2017-06-13 at 19:16
Unfortunately TG doesn't reveal actual sales numbers, and the value of a "point" in terms of units sold tends to vary over time, so it's relatively useless to compare titles that are far apart. You can see trends and it's more useful that Getchu's simple ranking, but it's far from perfect. If you find other sources, I'd be very interested in looking them them.

I hear this talk of VN sales going down often, and I'm inclined to agree with the idea, but with reservations. Without actual sales data it's difficult to judge how severe the situation actually is. All I can say is that the few VN kickstarters I've seen tend to be successful, and that VN creators don't seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth. I don't see the pace of releases going down either.

The thing is, I wouldn't call Hatsukoi 1/1's protagonist a nice guy at all. He's not evil, but he can be so dense, and he basically ignores his friends and partner's feelings. As a human being he can be quite despicable. Yes, he's generally helpful but that doesn't balance his otherwise negative traits.

Better not start to question why the most popular girls of the school/country fall in love with the average joe protagonists, it's a trope you have to accept to enjoy moeges at large. I've personally given up asking this question as it ultimately doesn't matter : it's clear it's all about the girls anyway, and getting a well-defined protagonist is just a nice bonus.
#80 by sakurakoi
2017-06-13 at 20:04
But average sales per game have also gone way down since the 2000's
such a number is actually irrelevant, well, to this discussion that is since what is actually important to note (for kinda criticizing the vial novel industry) is the entire value of the industry which... er, begins and ends where?

The reason why the average sales per game is of no concern here is because the number of games per timeframe have quite likely increased, by a lot indeed, sadly I can not really find contemporary and even less historical stats on that but hey, if ya can prove me actually wrong, go ahead.

Now about the "entire" industry and its value which has supposedly decreased from 30 Billion (at the beginning stretch after 2000...) to 22 Billion yen (2012, when there was no "adventure gamu" to be found on Steam, mind you): What does "the entire industry" entail and what not? Just the Japanese domestic market, hybrid games, merchandise, doujin/amateur?

These are four big section to keep in mind, whereas it is commonly known how after 2000 Japan become more isolated and focused on its own market and only just recently many visual novels came to Steam (the article mentions how 10k is now a big hit, well, while Grisaia's first entry has just around 30k on Steam, NEKOPARA Vol. 3 has already around 85k, even if you consider that they are not the full 88,000 price minus whatever, that's still quite significant).

Hybrid games is already what the vndb struggles with such, if you exclude something like Custom Maid 3D 2: link which has after no 2 years additional content that exceeds around 140.000 in prize (not counting alternative versions) and people sure buy that and then that is a significant loss since the markets sure ain't that much different. The same hold true for "all-ages" games and JRPGs, heck, Eushully's Meister Series really ain't that different to the common SRPG except for the H content and (more) narration (but who deliberately picks works based on whether they are dialogue only or not? What rather matters is the amount of text and oh boy am I disappointed how little support and base dialogue there is in the FE2 remake when Fates had so much, merely having the female protag take 3h to read).

Merchandise is not insignificant and quite what producers rely on now but what about back then? And that market surely overlaps with the one for anime and the likes, while surely fans do not buy randomly figurines and whatever, how many adventure game fans ain't into any other anime-style media? We obviously still usually got a budget to consider hence we can't just buy all good titles and test the rest.

Those who can't make it as professional for whatever reasons, whether it'd be due to personal ones or just because they are not good enough can still make games and sell them which obviously cuts into the profit of others (but not really into those of the works they are possibly based on and on the contrary rather raising such).

On a side note, considering that there is a recession in Japan since the beginning of this decade, it is no wonder that not all industries can just grow rapidly regardless, all but games are easily accessible and require no perquisite hardware one does not own anyway (well, a TV for anime and DVD player which quite every household should have by now, which can cost quite less than any console, except maybe for the countryside which still might be using VHS... if you were to believe Hinako Note~)

There is so much that affects the prosperity of this industry and blaming the writing/design and general direction for the lack thereof is just pushing a narrative, especially when relying on "what if" cases when the general trends quite beg to differ everywhere and more prefer moe than whatever story/drama/thriller for various reasons which are not just targeted at the quality but merely the personal preference, of soothing over tension when relieving stress and arguably, something like GTA is despite the violent nature, still soothing when one has not to worry about dying and having any progress reset, I sure do like free-roaming there and just create chaos over anything. Naturally, apart from soothing and tension, there is still something like excitement which can fit either of the two, whether sexual or not and which adds to the experience.

Better not start to question why the most popular girls of the school/country fall in love with the average joe protagonists, it's a trope you have to accept to enjoy moeges at large.
By the by, the answer is very simple: That's romance, something supposedly ideal that is (largely) not but one wishes to be (happening to themselves). Ideally, one would pick their lifetime partner solely based on their personality, appearance is just a bonus but in reality.... that's not the case, not at all and for females even more so.
#81 by desertopa
2017-06-13 at 20:53
By the by, the answer is very simple: That's romance, something supposedly ideal that is (largely) not but one wishes to be (happening to themselves). Ideally, one would pick their lifetime partner solely based on their personality, appearance is just a bonus but in reality.... that's not the case, not at all and for females even more so.

But for many of these protagonists, including the one for this game, it's not like their personalities are much of a draw either. If the protagonists don't have qualities which would make them appealing romantic partners if they were options a player could pick, rather than the viewpoint character, it's not much good to say "that's just how romance works." And if the protagonist isn't someone who justifies that level of enthusiasm, it weakens the writing when other characters show it unaccountably.

There is so much that affects the prosperity of this industry and blaming the writing/design and general direction for the lack thereof is just pushing a narrative, especially when relying on "what if" cases when the general trends quite beg to differ everywhere and more prefer moe than whatever story/drama/thriller for various reasons which are not just targeted at the quality but merely the personal preference, of soothing over tension when relieving stress and arguably, something like GTA is despite the violent nature, still soothing when one has not to worry about dying and having any progress reset, I sure do like free-roaming there and just create chaos over anything. Naturally, apart from soothing and tension, there is still something like excitement which can fit either of the two, whether sexual or not and which adds to the experience.

I don't expect that the tastes of the market as a whole will necessarily correspond to mine, and there are certainly other factors which make a difference, but if the industry value and average sales per game are going down, and there are professionals who're worried about whether the industry is going to stay afloat, I wouldn't assume that the direction the industry has gone is necessarily the best way it could have gone either.Last modified on 2017-06-13 at 20:59
#82 by ironmartin46
2017-06-26 at 01:55
Yeah, the MC is very frustrating. I do not know if he is an idiot or a dumbass, or maybe both... The heroines, in my opinion, are great except for Runa. But the MC is pure trash. There are times when I just sigh and say, "put me inside that damn game, and I'll show that weak af MC how it's done!"
#83 by kratoscar2008
2017-06-26 at 07:05
The heroines are terrible if they fall for someone like Yuuma. They literally have no standards.
#84 by cockblockula
2017-06-26 at 09:57
Everyone expected some sort of super-cool secret agent MC like Yuuji from Grisaia no Kajitsu. Why is having an average, realistic MC a bad thing again?
#85 by evenlaist
2017-07-01 at 15:29
Hee.. so i am one of the few who think the MC is pretty decent for a highschool student... Though i only finished maya and tsukisima route so far...

and currently on Yukino route...

i hate her... Dont give me the " let's break up because i am destroying you " crap... if Your bf do something stupid, then tell him straight..
#86 by kratoscar2008
2017-07-01 at 19:15
@84.
>Why is having an average, realistic MC a bad thing again?

If this game had any realism to it none of the girls except Runa would fall for a guy like Yuuma.
#87 by yuunamisaki
2017-07-01 at 21:59
*Sigh* Who cares if you guys don't like the protagonist or heroine, just don't drag everyone down who enjoy this Vn just because you don't like it...Last modified on 2017-07-01 at 22:05
#88 by eacil
2017-07-01 at 22:32
Ok, guys, excuse yourself for having a beginning of a critical mind and buy whatever they want you to buy.
#89 by kratoscar2008
2017-07-02 at 07:33
#87

If you enjoy this VN then your taste is crap. We already had the devs (Tone Works) agreed that Yuuma is a shit protagonist when they apologized to the many fans for making him so crap so thats a fact that Yuuma is a shit protag.

Also the translators actually wanted to translate Hoshi Ori but the phone text caused them problems so they went for Hatsukoi instead so yes even the translators didnt wanted to work in this game originally.

So if you dont like facts about how crap Hatsukoi is then dont come here.Last modified on 2017-07-02 at 07:34
#90 by sakurakoi
2017-07-02 at 09:17
If you enjoy this VN then your taste is crap.

Taste can never be crap, just some tastes are those which should not be aspired, encouraged or otherwise be confused with those which are worth discussing seriously and worth suggesting to others to consider as source of entertainment to get into. Pure enjoyment is one thing, anything can be enjoyed and only what is undoubtedly unethical (something that should be made illegal if it is not already) should not be and deeming low quality works as some kind "crime against author-ity" is a bit of an overkill if you actually want to save that little bit of time and money for an industry.

But welp, one can actually take trash quite seriously, not just in the way as it was intended to but as a "How to not do", namely what mistakes were made and what devices were used and should be avoided, like feeling naturally feeling auras to connect events/the story, mind control to facilitate "dramatic" betrayal, random flying birds and a duck ton of butterflies (level design), having a protagonist with no redeeming features whatsoever yet loved by all them pretty girls...

*Sigh* Who cares if you guys don't like the protagonist or heroine, just don't drag everyone down who enjoy this Vn just because you don't like it...
You are not forced to read this thread and in return.. why should anyone care about what you like? And also, you do only care if others like it, is that it?
#91 by yuunamisaki
2017-07-02 at 17:18
Ugh, not really I don't quite enjoy this VN actually... but l apologize if you were offended by my comment. l really am.Last modified on 2017-07-02 at 18:26
#92 by kratoscar2008
2017-07-03 at 06:46
# 90
* namely what mistakes were made and what devices were used and should be avoided.
Gladly Toneworks learned. Rynosuke is such a good protagonist that it almost feels like Yuuma was made that terrible on porpuse (Plus he can also be named).

#91
Then why did you feel the necessity to come and defend those who do enjoy it?
#93 by dk382
2017-07-03 at 07:14
#91
Then why did you feel the necessity to come and defend those who do enjoy it?
A better question is why do you feel the need to come and insult people based on what they enjoy? Let them like what they like, who gives a shit?
#94 by kratoscar2008
2017-07-03 at 13:55
Because thats what this thread is about.
#95 by dk382
2017-07-03 at 15:13
There can be discussion without insult is the point. You need to tone down the "this is fact and you're dumb for thinking otherwise" nonsense because actual discussion can't be held as long as you act like that.Last modified on 2017-07-03 at 15:23
#96 by kratoscar2008
2017-07-03 at 20:01
Well its a fact that Yuuma is a shit protag. The creators acknowledged it. Considering the tolerance nips have to crap protags that says a lot about this game main character.

If anything is sad that this game got translated over the other superior Tone Works.
#97 by gabezhul
2017-09-20 at 18:31
So, I decided to give this game a quick look in my "let's catch up!" project, and honestly, I found the protagonist's dumbness downright endearing in the common route. In fact, I was more annoyed with the two idiot friends.

That said, while I really like the art and the music, and I had a few minor chuckles every here and there, I ultimately just found the VN dreadfully boring. I think I might drop this and look for greener pastures.
#98 by fakegodz
2018-05-26 at 19:53
HOLY SHIT THIS MC IS FUCKING STRAIGHT UP SHIT.

I read Yukino and Runa route will make you hate the MC, so i did them last, with Runa first then Yukino. IT WAS FUCKING PAINFUL AS FUCK.
How... how did a character exists? what in the name of all that is holy did they managed to create such fucking dense character? HOLY.FUCKING.SHIT

I was trying my best to justify the MC for being oblivious, BUT HOLY FUCKING SHIT FUCK.

I pretty much hold CTRL to skip text like 80% of Runa Route and around 50% for Yukino, i feel 0 happiness for MC when he finally got laid. FUCKING ZERO. Fuck this MC.

This might come out as weird, but i like VN with sex scene, but i always skip the sex scene. I just want to know my boy MC got laid or not.
But my god this MC does not deserve to get laid with Yukino and Runa.

The reason MC got laid on both of those route is because the girl just love him unconditionally and fucking cliche as fuck. Childhood Friends route has never been my favorite, BUT HOOOLLLLLYYYY SHHIIIIIIIITTT, this is worse than i thought.

That doesn't mean the MC is annoying in all route though.

I think the MC on Midori route is the least annoying one.

Then Maya, i got some problem with some of MC's choices here, but Maya is just so precious and i think the MC deserve a girl like her.

Then Kyou, So-so i guess? but it's miles miles miles better than the last 2.

Then the last 2... i would say Runa route is THE WORST, ever. FUCK THIS MC.

Rant end, i am giving this stupid VN 2/10.

The 2 is for Maya.



It might be a bad idea to read this VN after Fureraba... because the MC on Fureraba is the perfect example of a normal high-school MC for me, and having to see an exact opposite MC in another VN that basically have the same setting just PISS ME THE FUCK OFF. FUUUUUUCCCKK.
#99 by canpenbook
2018-05-26 at 20:33
lets take a breather
#100 by fakegodz
2018-05-30 at 02:59
#99
I might have sworn too much, sorry about that. Just little bit pissed that's all.

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