VN chinese "aliases"

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#1 by wakaranai
2017-05-30 at 14:35
< report >u131559 is adding chinese translation of VN titles as aliases. this doesn't seem right, alias field is not meant for this. if VN gets local release, then its local title would be in release name field, otherwise title translations shouldn't be added as aliases. other users might as well add title translation for their languages, german, russian, whatever, and it will become a mess.

he did 50+ such edits, so i'm asking for opinions on this before reverting them.
#2 by yorhel
2017-05-30 at 15:12
< report >Uhm indeed, translations of titles should not be added unless they have some significant use (i.e. used by the dev, or used in notable media).
#3 by sakurakoi
2017-05-30 at 15:19
< report >^and I'd suppose that never actually happens unless the title gets translated or localized, where then the search engine can pick up the "alias" anyway, on that very release (or entry of the upcoming one).

alias field is not meant for this. if VN gets local release, then its local title would be in release name field

well, just this^, like seriously, there is nothing more to add but well, indeed, if one somehow wants more then that one should consider the consequences, which'd just be...

a mess
a big one at that, that field is not made for such and just ask yourself: Is this necessary? If the answer is yes then I am sorry but no, just no, please reconsider, otherwise...

by the by, other changes by the same user are actually also quite... questionable imho but this can be attributed to none guideline really be clear whether actual titles (not honorifics) should be translated or not. They really should be for since it should not be expected from everyone to know every title and each variation thereof, this proves especially troublesome considering that when a work just gets translated, not localized(&butchered) those sure will be translated in contrary to e.g -chan, -sama &c which are (better) kept for various reasons.
#4 by bunny1ov3r
2017-05-30 at 17:56
< report >well, pm him then.
#5 by abyssaleros
2017-05-30 at 19:32
< report >Oh there was someone faster then me in this matter. I was in the mood to mention that guy too.
#6 by guest93
2017-05-31 at 12:12
< report >He even did it on many that don't even have a chinese TL yet.....

If we are at him as the matter, does Koiiro Soramoyou look right to anyone? He removes pictures simply because they have the wrong resolution.
Deleting 6 of 8 pictures because they are 1848x1014, while the remaining two have the "correct" 1024x600 seems .... useless effort for me.
Mind you, that particular case has "removal -> revert -> re-removal", both from the mentioned person.Last modified on 2017-05-31 at 12:16
#7 by anonymous
2017-05-31 at 14:18
< report >Yes, screenshots with the incorrect resolution/bad cropping should be removed.
#8 by guest93
2017-06-01 at 14:14
< report >Even if the visual difference in resolution is only one pixel?

EDIT: You can tell me what you want, but it's madness to delete all pictures where it has not the exact same measurements by the pixel, even more so if that would mean deleting all screenshots of an VN :|
I mean, I totally see nothing wrong with these (v1899.27) pictures "except" that they are off by a couple pixels or so (I could understand if one is 1280 and one 1920, which is not the case thou). He should at least add replacements D:Last modified on 2017-06-01 at 18:48
#9 by kazeno
2017-06-01 at 15:04
< report >Yes. Prefer a 320x224 image instead of a x1.5278 or x4 scaled up full of artifacts from a psone game and capture and upload exactly what the original resolution is, no more or less pixels.
Precision in what can be made precise must be the standard in a database.

I would even upload only lossless formats like png but people still care too much about extra kbs in exchange for qualityLast modified on 2017-06-01 at 15:14
#10 by kiru
2017-06-01 at 15:36
< report >Especially with screenshots it's also about actually having them. For example I (mostly) don't make screenshots JUST for this DB. Jpeg is enough for what I want so that's what I have around. There are a few.. questionable looking screens around, quality-wise, but for the most part jpeg should be fine, if it's original size and everything. Now idea how those not so hot looking screens on vndb were taking originally.Last modified on 2017-06-01 at 15:37
#11 by sakurakoi
2017-06-01 at 16:27
< report >
people still care too much about extra kbs in exchange for quality

or maybe some people care too much quality and forget about everything else, just sayin'

seriously, apart from the difference actually being closer and over megabytes especially for 1080p but even when lower, the main if not sole purpose of screenshots is to show samples of the diverse artwork+design and if implemented, gameplay. So that for example those 10 available screenshots for a hybrid with sexual content &c one has...

1+2: Normal ADV/NVL/whatever mode, add another if there are indeed two styles which is quite possible, other backgrounds to show the setting should also be considered even if there is no alternate text mode
2: Event CG, the more people the merrier
3+4: HCG which shows the important bits because mosaic and style and add another for the style of whatever, whether it'd be chests, Ahegao or feet (one can be quite picky about all them "little" details and styles)
5: SD art (often used to reduce costs but quite acceptable because those look cute+funny)
6-8: Gameplay, and maybe another one if not two (because gameplay can be quite diverse)
9-10: Translation of text and interface. (le font&el quality)
11-??: TL into even more languages.

Important is ofc to use screenshots from the early game, while there may be actually more to add, especially in terms of HCG there are many factions and one would ofc would like to appeal to as many as possible so that e.g both big and small chest sizes should be presented, additionally naked sprites often differ, in quality and style indeed, from the CG art but welp, that all depends on the work and usually 10 is more than enough (but can easily be not enough, heck, even if there is no real gameplay, there can be gimmicks).

Now if ya really want to fap to a HCG, get the darn work then, while I am not one of those who have a pesky connection or monthly limitation on it, I do rather emphasize with those...

I won't even argue about the already strict guidelines since those are actually easy to follow, however any more and you are forgetting the actual purpose: Information and Accessibility. By the by, I am fairly certain that a PNG requirement would quite bloat the amount of data on the server (even more), after all, anything else is just text (I am honestly a bit curious whether yorhel has comprehensive stats on that and if those could be shown. I understand if mere curiosity is not enough to readily show classified data)

on a related side note, I am fairly sure that Imoo is not a Japanese family name and that certainly 妹尾 is read as "Seno(o)"
#12 by beliar
2017-06-01 at 16:42
< report >Well, the official site does say Imoo, unless you think it's a mistake. In that case, the only way to be sure is to DL the game and listen to the dialogue when the name is mentioned. Unless someone has played the game and can contradict it, it should remain Imoo, because the official source is the one that has the most weight.
#13 by sakurakoi
2017-06-01 at 17:38
< report >
Well, the official site does say Imoo
welp, that's some super small furigana right there, now I'd still like to place a bet on that the name is never pronounced because it seems to be "that kind" of VN (only imouto incest, if the voiced characters actually talk to each other, having them use their full name to e.g scold each other, is unlikely). Now if I were to make an educated guess on why the writer would name them like this, well, one sure needs no education actually to see that they really wanted to make some sort of pun and make them the little sister family with, uh... a tail?

I'm actually not even sure how or why 妹 turns to Seno (imouto or rarely shimai afaik) + o (尾) except that three vowels after another, especially the same ones, rather sound stupid (the first o, in imouto is actually one o with a macron, meaning it is a long vowel, alternatively either Oo or Ou, hence why it is sometimes pronounced with a long o)
#14 by jazz957
2017-06-01 at 20:27
< report >I've been removing them but he just added two of them back. link and link. I even linked to this thread in my edits. Now another one: link.

I'm convinced he didn't even look at the link to the thread.Last modified on 2017-06-01 at 20:35
#15 by funnerific
2017-06-01 at 21:40
< report >Agree that aliases shouldn't be there if no translated version / TL patch in that language exists for the game. Also annoyed at removal of images that are off by a couple of pixels without adding replacements.Last modified on 2017-06-01 at 21:41
#16 by eacil
2017-06-02 at 01:32
< report >We add aliases english are using around the net, why can't he do that if the chinese community have theirs?
If I am not wrong, the problem comes with the proximity between chinese and japanese which make the conversion easy-peasy? Meaning it's less about translating but more about applying simple principles? Meaning the chinese community has nothing to do to convert the titles (and flood the db with them)?
#17 by bunny1ov3r
2017-06-02 at 02:22
< report >Wait @eacil can you clarify your paragraph in #16 a bit? No offense but there were some grammatical problems in it that I am not sure I understood correctly.
#18 by kiru
2017-06-02 at 09:49
< report >The question is, where do we want to stop. The idea of this site is mostly to be a DB for VNs for the english speaking community. If we add Chinese aliases, then we'd need to think about all the other languages as well.
#19 by yorhel
2017-06-02 at 09:55
< report >Whether it's English or Chinese doesn't even really matter. The point is that we don't even add English translations to every title. For an alias to be added it has to actually be *used* somewhere.
#20 by guest93
2017-06-02 at 10:34
< report >Whatever the result of this discussion becomes, I'd say he should maybe stop doing the aliases; depending on cosent about the lack of replacements for pictures probably that as well; until a solution is found.
#21 by eacil
2017-06-02 at 22:29
< report >@bunny1ov3r: just when someone told me I have such a (high) level in english (and thought he was saying the opposite...), what eased the pain I had since someone else told me I was as good as gogole translate (before it had its alleged super update)... :/

So, without any knowledge in chinese, I was under the assumption, after hearing they could read part of japanese text only with the help of their common symbols, also backed by the feeling of seeing a lot of stand-alone chinese translation here, that the translation from japanese to chinese was kind of mechanical when it comes to elements as simple as titles and so was more a question of conversion than translation. Based on that, I thought it was maybe easier for chinese to use their own titles than keeping the original ones.
It was wrong because I was told that chinese is not grammatically close to japanese, and after closer inspection of the aliases of 4396, yeah, not a lot is shared between the two languages.
Still, he is saying "unofficial titles used around net" to re-revert jazz, which is a requirement for aliases. Now, is it the truth? Well, I am not chinese and I did enough assumptions for today.
#22 by bunny1ov3r
2017-06-02 at 23:30
< report >@eacil

Thanks that was a lot clearer :D. I have no doubt that your English is great but sometimes when we write fast online we don't communicate as clearly as we thought.

On the similarity of Japanese and Chinese:
You are right that Japanese and Chinese are similar (Kanji are derived from Chinese characters), and they don't share grammatical structures. If we are only talking about translating Japanese kanji titles into Chinese though, it is usually a mechanical process (since Kanji is just about meaning, not about grammar).

However, surprisingly enough, Chinese translation teams have a tendency to translate the title not literally, but rather capturing the spirit of the VN.

An example. I'll use this one link since two separate Chinese translation team released their patches at around the same time. The first team's title translates to "everlasting Christmas eve", while the second team is a literal translation meaning "December's eve". Notice that the first team sneaked a plot-significant adjective into the title? Chinese translation team does it a lot.

Moreover, even a "mechanical" process can be interpreted in multiple ways. I'll use this example link, also a game where two separate Chinese translation teams released around the same time. You will notice that the chinese characters are almost the same, except the first team use the imouto kanji (same as Chinese) once, and the second team twice. The first team preserved the characters exactly like its Japanese title, while the second team's translation sounds more natural in Chinese.... hmm...

All those above are quite irrelevant, though. What I am more interested is how to interpret what Yorhel said in #2 "i.e. used by the dev, or used in notable media". Does "aliases used in notable media" include unofficial titles used around Chinese (baidu, etc.) forums? If that is what Yorhel meant (I am doubtful), I am fairly sure 4396 is justified. I could check though. I go to Chinese forum a lot.

For all those people doubting whether these aliases are "used" somewhere, trust me, Chinese VN community is much bigger than English-speaking VN community. Discussions probably are going on somewhere.Last modified on 2017-06-02 at 23:51
#23 by eacil
2017-06-03 at 00:43
< report >Thanks for the clarification.
The rule states "any aliases and acronyms used around the net". I am pretty sure an english alias well used on hongfire for I don't remember what game was recently added. Most people who are complaining here are doing it only because the chinese aliases have no use for them and you know how people work, they only think of themselves. I mean, those damn chinese are taking our jobs and now they want our aliases!??
#24 by bunny1ov3r
2017-06-03 at 01:42
< report >@eacil

I had a suspicion that what you are saying explains well majority of the reaction in this thread. I just didn't want to break the ice.

Anyways, I'd make one recommendation to the rules regarding adding non-Japanese, non-English aliases for VNs not translated in that language yet. That is, we allow only ONE alias in that language, especially enforced for not yet translated VN. Without this rule people might add all sorts of different shortened name that will make it look messy. Basically, we give the benefit of the doubt to the first editor and recognizes that the alias he added is the most used one, until another editor comes in and say otherwise.

@18 kiru
dude, without even looking at the data, I can tell you that Chinese and English patches make up for more than 90% of the completed translation patches for the better novels, of which Chinese ones occupy more than half. If we make the assumption that number of patches on better VNs positively correlate with the size of VN community, other languages aren't even close. It would take a black swan event for a Dutch VN player to be motivated enough to add Dutch aliases on untranslated titles and justify it, to give but an example. Russian and Spanish, maybe, very doubtfully.Last modified on 2017-06-03 at 01:58
#25 by funnerific
2017-06-06 at 11:14
< report >Are we off his case now? He's changing good English to bad English, good images to bad images - I don't care if the old one is that of the first press limited edition, it looks much better.
A full revert would do fine, if you ask me. But please do something.