Protagonist's hetare overdone?

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#1 by bdawg
2017-07-01 at 13:14
Who thinks they over did it with making the protagonist a hetare? Honestly, I felt they went too far it wasn't funny anymore.Last modified on 2017-07-01 at 13:15
#2 by kzel
2017-07-01 at 14:26
I only played through Ruri's route, so I can't speak for the other routes, but I wouldn't call him a hetare. He's very, very cautious, but I can understand that behavior considering the amount of sub-characters (the bulter, the sword-swinging kouhai, the rest of the school) that would murder him if it got known he fucked one of the heroines, let alone for some dubious reason like "a possession".

Yeah his hesitation can get a bit tiresome, and eventually the girls decide and not him, but once on a route he seemed dedicated enough. The only real complaint I'd have is that he seemed to ignore the advice he was given about the exorcism, something that doesn't fit his otherwise cautious and calculated behavior.
#3 by dk382
2017-07-01 at 16:09
People have been horribly misusing the "hetare" tag for a while now. Hetare doesn't mean passivity, beta male archetype, or that kind of stuff. Please stop tagging it like that.Last modified on 2017-07-01 at 16:10
#4 by sakurakoi
2017-07-01 at 17:16
Well, I only played kinda the introduction (my save is at Ruri's first H scene), before simply halting and yes, I can quite agree on that I would not call him "hetare" either just because he is cautious, especially when he needs to be.

By the by... when was "hetare" ever funny?
#5 by bdawg
2017-07-05 at 12:48
Definition they have here at vndb

"Protagonist of this game is a worthless, spineless individual that is not worthy of being called a man. He is no help to anyone and is most of the time unable to make any decisions in time. He is always being pushed around by every other character in the game, he is that way at the start and he is still like that in the final moments of the game.

Please don't use this tag on games that has its protag starting this way but also has him fixing his ways in the first hours of the game. Thus making it somewhat bearable by some quick reading.

While this description says man, this tag can also be applied to cowardly, worthless female protagonists."

How he couldn't choose the girl to sleep with I can understand cuz the girl he chooses might suffer unpleasant feelings. Even if you take that away, he fits that description perfectly. His power is inborn so you can't really count it much.
I could go through lots of parts showin his hetare but that wud take long, also may be spoiler.
You could call him cautious, but I would call that cowardly, cuz caution = paying attention, which as kzel said he doesnt notice anything.

He showed few man moments in all routes
Ruri route was the route where he was most assertive so shdnt look at it frm her route. Ouka's was worst i'd say.
This is my personal view, but I categorize donkan under hetare too.. And he was most donkan every, specially harem route

And answering since when "hetare" was funny... Well depends. if you like watching some idiots and the people characters gettin angry and fed up with idiots lol
#6 by sakurakoi
2017-07-05 at 14:03
I could go through lots of parts showin his hetare but that wud take long, also may be spoiler.
2 little things worth noting...

1) There are spoiler tags for a reason: so everyone can decide themselves whether they don't want to be spoiled or not, heck, spoilers may actually lead to people deciding to read something and continue reading it
2) Making a point 101: One needs three things at least to make a fair/solid/valid one: The thesis (the protag is hetare is yours), at least an argument (what is defined as hetare) and especially examples are required so that one can not just assert anything they want to. To call out the protag for being hetare, you don't just need to tell what is hetare but what they actually did and consistently don't do. At least some examples could do wonders to verify your assertion.

cuz caution = paying attention, which as kzel said he doesnt notice anything.
no... this is not what #2 has written at all

Ruri route was the route where he was most assertive so shdnt look at it frm her route.
...Wut?

This is my personal view, but I categorize donkan under hetare too
You can have whatever personal view you like to but please be aware what chaos ensues if we don't use terms how they were defined and no single individual and not even a small group of like-minded people can just change them like that.

While Hetare usually should entail Donkan since that'd be indeed a truly useless/worthless character, whether it'd generally or in terms of recognizing romantic feelings, however being Donkan can be without Hetare indeed, generally one can be useful and even proactive but useless in terms of recognizing romantic feelings.
#7 by dk382
2017-07-05 at 23:45
Donkan should absolutely not be categorized under hetare. We have both donkan and hetare tags, and donkan is not a child tag under hetare for a reason. If this character is simply an extreme donkan, vote for a level 3 donkan, not hetare.

The most important characteristics of the hetare tag are the cowardice and being pushed around parts. A hetare might not even be donkan at all. We don't include any of the typical donkan definitions in the hetare definition, so if you're tagging hetare using those qualities, then please don't. If a hetare recognized romantic feelings, they'd usually run away from them, whereas most eroge donkans end up accepting those feelings once they're discovered. I feel like the ability to recognize the feelings of others has very little to do with the hetare trait.Last modified on 2017-07-05 at 23:48
#8 by bdawg
2017-07-06 at 10:10
@#6
Sorry for not giving you a detailed full discussion on why I think he's hetare with examples... I'm not that enthusiastic about proving he's a hetare. I mainly wanted to ask if anyone else, or how many people considered him one, that's why I used "?". But I did give the vndb definition...

About the caution part. #2 said he was quite careful and cautious right? yet ignored the advice of the exorcism. I don't know what part of the advice or scene he's refering to.
This is not examples of him being hetare, just explaining what I meant by him being cautious all the time yet screw up at important parts. Thought I guess writer needs that to make the story. 2 examples of that
Ruri :
He found out about Ruri's dad being the school principal, really strict on Ruri not allowing much contact with men. On a date Ruri invited him to love hotel to cut curfew. Knowing his cautious personality he should know Ruri is principal daughter and the dorm manager will likely inform him bringing their relationship to light, infact it happened exactly like that. Also before that around the confession scene she needed to call her dad to ask about the succubus, but she was too scared so he gave her path of running away telling her to take her time, forgetting the big picture, what he's here for and what is most important for Ruri and the other 3 girls; getting rid of the succubus which could ruin their life. He regretted it himself later when Ruri got into house arrest and they were all stuck
This connects to where I said he was quite ok i Ruri's route, cuz he took action immediately to make up for it by sneaking to Ruri's room and convincing her to talk to her dad and even went with her


Aoi:
When saving Aoi who was about to be possessed by the succubus and he didnt hav enough power in his stone, so he decided to bring the succubus into his own body and planned to be hijacked like that. He forgot the advice of using his own blood to exorcise anything possessing him. He only remembers at end when Aoi starts crying to him trying to save him. Oh yea and in the 1st place before she got possessed, he didn't notice the signs when Kaoruko did.

@#6 & #7
For donkan being hetare... As I said its just my personal view. I did not put the hetare tag on this VN. Also I don't judge this protag as hetare because of that. I'm aware there's lots of really good and proactive protagonists that are donkan. Merely saying to me donkan can be an element of a hetare.
This protagonist was donkan, cowardly, pushed around a lot, indecisive, timid, apart for confession scene or climax scene was useless and did nothing. Let me add, there wasn't a "single" H scene that he invited the heroine onLast modified on 2017-07-06 at 10:11
#9 by kiru
2017-07-06 at 12:46
The main thing for hetare is, that the actions, or lack thereof, have to be because of some kind of fear for little to no reason. It's also generally something that influences most of the characters actions.

So, a character can be pushed around a lot, indecisive, timid and not doing much and still not be hetare. Hetare can probably be best compared to general social awkwardness. That usually leads to all the other things hetare characters are known for. However, there's also the polar opposite: Essentially massively spoiled characters. The rich boy who is all high and mighty until anything happens that threatens him which makes him be like "I'll tell daddy!!" while crying is a somewhat common trope.
In this case though I doubt the protag is super rich. So he pretty much has to be socially awkward to be hetare, which probably includes things like overthinking literally everything, being negative and so on.



That said, it'll be always a bit of interpretation. I feel like it's fairly obvious what a hetare character is, if you see them. But perhaps someone never really saw what that is which obviously changes their view. It's not THAT common... thankfully. Though the tag description is honestly terrible as well, as things like "worthy of being called a man" is SO freaking subjective and many many many MANY not hetare characters won't be "worthy" in the eyes of many either.
#10 by sakurakoi
2017-07-06 at 14:05
like "worthy of being called a man" is SO freaking subjective and many many many MANY not hetare characters won't be "worthy" in the eyes of many either.
Yeah, about that... not really fond of such (and also very stupid) sexism either but the db is generally skewed in that regard, like having "Reverse Rape" as main tag instead of simply having the differentiation of the "genre" presented by having simply having "male perpetrated rape" and "female perpetrated rape" (or something similar, whether it'd be "Rape (Female/Male victim)" or "Rape (by male/female)") not just as alias one can only read when they go to the tag page but shown on every VN page where this applies to. Ofc this along with the two same sex ones (oh and not to mention that futa perpetrated and victimized rape is not really made clear).

Just as fun thing to note: Those who are new might very well think that "Reverse Rape" would be having a rape situation reversed, such things also exist as fetish and in works (yet there is no real tag for that) where indeed the tables turn for whatever reason (like one was just baited into raping by a succubus and was then... well, they got more than they bargained for. Alternatively a practically enslaved boy toy "rebels" by proving who wears the trousers in the house).
#11 by eacil
2017-07-06 at 14:49
Reverse rape/gyaku rape is the japanese terminology. It's based on the reverse of the predominant use, i.e. "male rape women" here. If you see gyaku anal/fella then it is also peniban or futanari on male. VNDB has nothing to do with that even if I, myself, grimace when I see this "worthy of being called a man", indeed.
That's also why I agree with Skorpionobzadeath here, a female raping a female is definitely not the right use of the gyaku rape trait. There is no reverse of female on female, not even male on male, because those two fetishes cater to different audiences and separated audiences can't join fetishes I believe, when such fetishes are based on inner perspective. In fact, for a woman not interested by male porn, gyaku rape might not even have any meaning or would have the opposite meaning (male rape women) if yaoi/BL wasn't so predominant.
#12 by joker01
2017-08-17 at 03:20
I actually have to agree with #2 on this one, he does become dedicated when he hits the routes. When push comes to shove, he can step up his game and take the initiative (a bit of spoiler on one of the routes in the link).
He just takes a bit of a time to warm up though. Timid Protagonist tag is probably better suited for him rather than the Hetare Protagonist tag.Last modified on 2017-08-17 at 03:38

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