Multiple account troll editor

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#26 by harleyquin
2019-01-15 at 12:13
u158504 is another of the troll's clone accounts after december got banned. Another to add to the list.
#27 by yorhel
2019-01-15 at 12:59
My actions build this database. Removing the correct info I add dismantles the database. Time spent complaining adds nothing, could easily be spent adding more.
Your actions would only make sense if we had more people to verify all contributions than we have people to add entries to the database. But that is, unfortunately, not the case. You've repeatedly shown to add incorrect information to the database, and with the little data you do add it takes more time to verify the entries than to add them. Meaning: You are wasting other people's time, which they could better spend adding correct and more complete information to the database.

I initially unblocked your account because enough time had passed and to give you another chance. But damn you keep wasting that.
#28 by wishfart
2019-01-16 at 07:46
If you verify information regardless, why would it matter who adds it? "Adding correct and more complete information" is what building on my entries does anyway, and it takes less time since I've already done some of the work.

Look at where I left off with Onna Kyoushi Mania recently, for example. Anything wrong there? I took the time to adapt the romaji for the name from the hiragana (great when the archives provide t) and also got the pictures and the kanji.

They look like a couple of great starting points to me.

Trolls edit primarily to upset others, good contributions come as a side effect. I'm editing to try and make good contributions to build the database, upsetting others comes as a side effect.
#29 by yorhel
2019-01-16 at 07:57
It doesn't matter who adds the information, it matters how much information is added and what the quality of said information is. If it takes more time to verify the information than to add it in the first place, it's not worth much. Creating new entries is only a small part of the work - you're doing the small easy part and hope that others will do the hard work of completing the entries. What we end up with is a lot of useless entries (You don't even verify if a character is notable enough to warrant an entry! No, not everything with a name or a picture is notable) and a lot of incomplete entries that don't have any value at all.

Go play the games, get detailed information from the game's content, add that. *That* is what this database needs the most, by far. Just gleaning information from names and pictures without context is going to be misleading and often wrong.
#30 by harleyquin
2019-01-16 at 08:13
And while he's at it, he could make the effort to actually read what Shinnew painstakingly dug up from 2015 regarding how to do proper character entries. All the information is there and has been repeated on multiple occasions.

Then again, his easy and bone lazy option is to spam private threads on non admin users asking the same thing administrators and moderators have been flagging him up for since 2015.

Not to mention the massive backlog of troll entries he's made with his clone accounts since 2015 which got even Shinnew to give up because of the sheer volume he expects others to pick up the slack on.

I'm not in charge, but it won't stop me from hoping all of the accounts are permanently banned from editing and he is repeatedly called out and banned each time another of the hydra head clone accounts get created
#31 by wishfart
2019-01-16 at 08:13
> If it takes more time to verify the information than to add it in the first place, it's not worth much

What about in the case where I am adding information which can be easily verified because it was taken directly from a description page such as link ? I often link the source in the summaries, which is much easier to check than playing the game. Description pages like that often include information like BWH which may not even be mentioned in the game itself.

>Creating new entries is only a small part of the work - you're doing the small easy part and hope that others will do the hard work of completing the entries.

It can't be that easy or someone would've already done it in the 7+ years that have lapsed after the creation of a page for a VN which remains characterless. There's also the matter of "I can't think of all the traits now, more will occur to me if I revisit this later".

>What we end up with is a lot of useless entries

I think anything which adds information we don't have present elsewhere is useful.

>You don't even verify if a character is notable enough to warrant an entry! No, not everything with a name or a picture is notable

Fair point. I was doing that so far with this WF account though. When they bother to single out a character on the game's page, they're certainly notable. When there is no page like that, you do have to rely on personal opinion.

d12 says "assign the role that you think most naturally fits the character." I do have a habit of leaving it at the default setting of "Main character", expecting if people think they are less important they will demote them to SC/MAA as appropriate. I think "makes an appearance" would make a better default setting.

If there are some minimum requirements for "makes an appearance" (the bottom category of least importance) could you possibly please define them in the FAQ? Presently "only appear in the story for a short while and have only very little to no lines of dialog" doesn't really set any minimum requirements aside from that they "appear", so I shouldn't mention characters who are merely mentioned but only appear.

If there is a need to document information about them, that would make more sense in the character description of a character who does appear and who has some kind of connection with them. If an appearing character doesn't have a connection then I shouldn't mention them at all.

>a lot of incomplete entries that don't have any value at all.

Incomplete entries have less value than complete ones, but they do have some value. The open ability to edit character entries is to build them and fix mistakes.

If the intent is for VNDB to have a "finished" look, the absurdity of it is that it doesn't look finished when hundreds/thousands of important characters are missing from games because a name/pic isn't enough.

///

>backlog of troll entries

HQ you really don't seem worth talking to if you're going to be rude like that. I wouldn't mind if you called them "shit entries" or "idiot entries" or "lazy entries" if you don't like the quality, but there's no need to speculate about my motives.

I'll admit, there are places where I rush a little, such as the formatting preference where we alter how kanji are officially written by inserting a space between the surname/forename. I still think it is better than not including the kanji at all (original name isn't a mandatory field for creating entries, it is not expected) but I understand why you want it there.

It's just there are some things which some people can do more efficiently than others. For me, if the archive.org doesn't use a space, the process I use is to paste it on Jisho where they will suggest how it breaks up.

That works best when there are hiragana (which more often do have spaces even when kanji do not) to work as a tiebreaker when there are multiple suggestions on how to split the kanji into surname/forename. That's luckily rare enough.Last modified on 2019-01-16 at 08:20
#32 by harleyquin
2019-01-16 at 08:15
Repeating the same rehashed arguments he's been parroting for years. No amount of arguing is going to change his mind that "incomplete skeleton entries" are worthy of creation when they do absolutely nothing.
#33 by wishfart
2019-01-16 at 08:22
You are speaking emotionally. You should at least speak realistically and say "next to nothing" or "all but nothing", because you know full well if you think of it rationally that it is at least slightly more than nothing.

One point I will make is that if you want a field to be mandatory that it should be altered to be mandatory like the name field.

I know that if you try to post a character entry with the name field empty (or with the edit summary empty) that you get a warning and it won't let you make the edit.

What other fields do you think should generate that sort of warning?
#34 by harleyquin
2019-01-16 at 08:30
You only read things when you're under personal attack, so might have to do it more often since gentle reminders from moderators on what you should be doing for character entries are ignored or fobbed off with exactly the same tired rehash which has been repeated most recently three posts above this one.

Why makes you so special that you think you can get away with a character entry consisting a copy and paste of a name with pictures occasionally thrown in when they're at your fingertips?Last modified on 2019-01-16 at 08:52
#35 by yorhel
2019-01-16 at 08:36
> It can't be that easy or someone would've already done it in the 7+ years that have lapsed after the creation of a page for a VN which remains characterless.

You're literally the only one who believes that placeholder entries have more value than no entries. Others haven't added those characters not because adding placeholders is hard, but because they'd like to have more information than just that. Which, of course, takes a lot more effort.

Regarding character roles: There's nothing worse than false information. If you can't make a very good guess about a character's role in a VN (backed up by information from the story), it shouldn't have an entry.

> The open ability to edit character entries is to build them and fix mistakes.

Which, like I said before, isn't very valuable considering that even incomplete entries need to be checked for correctness and that the largest amount of work is in adding the rest of the information. Which, considering how few people are capable and willing to do that, isn't likely to happen for 99% of the characters you add.
#36 by wishfart
2019-01-19 at 02:32
HQ
>You only read things when you're under personal attack

Untrue. Though admittedly when I can't edit, it does prompt me to check my discussions tab, so it does serve to encourage me to read MORE.

>so might have to do it more often since gentle reminders from moderators on what you should be doing for character entries are ignored or fobbed off

Bans appear to be the first means of reminder, which is understandable if they want me to process instructions before continuing to edit.

>the same tired rehash which has been repeated most recently three posts above this one

Rehashing disputes of fallacies / insults wouldn't be necessary if they ceased to be offered. A simple "quality over quantity" and "the minimum requirements my aesthetics set are higher than the FAQ dictates" is really all that needs to be said.

>Why makes you so special that you think you can get away with a character entry consisting a copy and paste of a name with pictures occasionally thrown in when they're at your fingertips?

It isn't a copy and paste of a name, I run hiragana through link and then tweak stuff like ō > oo per the preferred formatting here to get aesthetic romaji when the information is available.

Guilty on the kanji. I had innocently hoped "throwing a space between the surname/forename is no big deal, someone else will come along and do that, or I'll do it tomorrow when I'm alert enough to process jisho.org results". Knowing this is still so strict and exclusionist, I am willing to do the extra work.

TBH at the time I couldn't even remember the site was jisho, because I'd been done so long. That's part of why I put it off, because I knew once I remembered I could fix it, but it was too late by the time I did.

I also do more than the name/pic, I have often done pretty thorough trait tagging. I admit I did skimp a bit on it recently, again because I wasn't in a very observant mindset (a little doped on melatonin) and couldn't remember the names of hairstyles and clothing and the like.

I figured I could update the character entry within the week with additional observations. I think people also have fun adding in traits that others don't notice or know the names for, I know it's fun for me!

//

YH
>You're literally the only one who believes that placeholder entries have more value than no entries.

I'll concede I am the only one in this thread (consisting of you two, shinnew, eiesoldar, beliar and barfboy) who has expressed that belief.

>Others haven't added those characters not because adding placeholders is hard, but because they'd like to have more information than just that. Which, of course, takes a lot more effort.

I like to think of it as more than a placeholder. In many cases, the name (and possibly image) of a character is not readily available information in a description (if the game even has one) so even the association of a face (perhaps a character on the game's cover) with a name, seems like valuable information to me.

Knowing a character name in association with a game's name can also be valuable in looking up info on the game, in cases where a game's name might be some short common phrase who could have polluted search results.

> There's nothing worse than false information. If you can't make a very good guess about a character's role in a VN (backed up by information from the story), it shouldn't have an entry.

I think it's an educated assessment (more than a good guess) that someone they bother to cover on their website is a main character. The heroines of harem-type VNs generally stand out in that role.

"Makes an appearance" would not technically be wrong for a secondary/main/protag though, which is why I think it would make a better default than MC, as SMPs all "appear".

>Which, like I said before, isn't very valuable considering

I agree that it's not VERY valuable, but it's a teensy bit valuable :)

> even incomplete entries need to be checked for correctness

True, but incomplete entries are short/small and take less effort to check for correctness than a long/big entry.

> the largest amount of work is in adding the rest of the information

Which I can't get around to helping with if I'm banned partway through my process :(

I can only press "random VN" so many times until I stop getting blank entries and need something to do. Revisiting old contributions at link would be a natural.

On this recent account I only created 17 character pages on 2 games. If I promise to limit myself to improving those like I should have to begin and not creating new ones until you agree they've been reasonably improved (I'll update here when I do) would you be willing to provisionally restoring the entry-editing privileges this account and give me a chance to make up for the blind rush?

I only got halfway through one of the games before I went to bed and would like to earn a path to completing its full complement.
#37Post deleted.
#38 by yorhel
2019-01-19 at 05:50
@harleyquin: I suggest you stop posting here if you are unable to stay rational. Seriously, you're not helping at all.

> True, but incomplete entries are short/small and take less effort to check for correctness than a long/big entry.

Still far too much time for what they are worth.

> Which I can't get around to helping with if I'm banned partway through my process :(

Which you can't do anyway because you don't play the games to have the necessary in-depth knowledge to make good judgement on how to fill the fields.

I'm sorry, but you've been given more than enough chances by now, and I have very little faith that things will improve. I have no intention to reinstate your edit rights.
#39 by harleyquin
2019-01-19 at 06:57
I'll have to back up my posts next time with quotes, or else I'll be dismissed for ranting.

Regardless, I'll flag up any additional clone accounts and request they be banned, as per directions given in the admin post early in this thread.
#40 by wishfart
2019-01-19 at 07:08
Lapsed time doesn't appear to earn it, only improved edits would show it, without expiration dates to await this can't be done without circumvention.

It's not as if when I open threads on the games asking others to make the character entries that it ever gained traction. There is apathy for certain games, perhaps partially because if no interesting characters grab attention, people will not get the game to begin with.

Isn't a major part of what we do helping to archive the character descriptions from defunct websites that aren't even up anymore because the game is no longer being sold?

Continuity is mutually desirable, and if I'm able to improve enough to be undetectable neither will have that. Desire for continuity can motivate adherence to higher detail demands.

6-digit user numbers are the pits, wouldn't it be simpler to consolidate back to 7601?

Only be regularly editing can I (re)build habits of detailed editing. If I abandon the site for a couple months only to inevitably be drawn back by my love for it, it's like a reset button and being a noob all over again.

Meanwhile, why have everyone tense worried about clones for weeks/months of no threat (distracting from editing) when this is a 0% worry if duration-limited punishments encourage retaining a single account for a single record?

I wonder if perhaps some severe conditions would allow this, like "you can only make 1 new character entry per week" maybe? Or even per month? Maybe adjust such limits based on quality of preceding exampels? But with absolutely no outlet with indefinite/infinite, surely that is cruel and unusual?

Edit (Jan 21) thanks shinnew and gregory! Good editors!Last modified on 2019-01-21 at 22:17
#41 by shinnew
2019-03-25 at 09:59
link
#42 by harleyquin
2019-03-26 at 00:36
Agreed. Spams new entries instead of fixing the muck generated over the years. Same style for writing descriptions.
#43 by yorhel
2019-03-26 at 07:30
Amazing. All that talk about improving and then still creating entries because "she's on the cover so she must be important".
#44 by bates
2019-04-15 at 02:15
>Spams new entries

Example?

>instead of fixing the muck

Are you saying you'd be okay with me openly doing that, HQ? Much as I want to, that seems like the clearest possible tip-off, and I think you'd report it anyway. If there was incentive (ie voluntarily limiting myself to improving old entries for a while would be sentence-served) then I 100% would.

>All that talk about improving

I think you can acknowledge that this time I did include the kanji and properly space it, which is something asked of me before. I've also focused characters with full hiragana instructions on how to pronounce their names, who are clarified as being important to the game by being described in the game's character sections.

I also put a lot of effort into getting the images since I need to reformat them into a proper image format that VNDB accepts, plus my right mouse key doesn't work so I can't just right click and do save image as, I need to dig into the source code to find the URL for the image so I can click save as from my browser's dropdown.

>creating entries because "she's on the cover so she must be important"

Do you have a specific example here of a character you do not believe to be important who I created an entry for?

Mentioning in the summary that they were on the cover does not mean that was the only reason I chose to make the entry, it's just added information.Last modified on 2019-04-15 at 02:16

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