|#1 by usagi|
2017-08-24 at 12:38
|What topic says. I quote rusanon since he said all I wanted to say|
At least under old requirements for hybrids, it certainly wouldn't qualify because VN-to-gameplay ratio is less than week of gameplay for hour of text.
You don't play these games to read story (because you run out of story to read in no time) but to collect cute girls and waste a hour or two per day while you are getting to work or something.
Many other gacha-ge (FKG, Kamihime, Koihime, ShiroPro and so on) use narrative and VN format for these rare times they have any kind of text to print, should we add all of them too? There's no difference from FGO other than abundance of Fate-verse fans, and I think we agreed that "no more special exceptions"?
Please remove it from vndb. I think poll results will show what majority thinks - if that is not obvious by lots of 1's in rating.Last modified on 2017-08-24 at 12:39
|#2 by sakurakoi|
2017-08-24 at 14:11
|What the supposed majority (which could just be rally'd Gacha game and Fate fans) thinks is in any event of no relevance.|
Gacha Games are literary the anti-thesis to Visual Novels and any acceptable hybrids:
Plenty of randomly acquired short "experiences" which consist mostly of gameplay or rather grinding, often intentionally designed in a way to encourage very short sessions of gameplay each day. Which are also often even in a competitive multiplayer environment, needing either to be used each day effectively (no "my pace") or well, "pay2win lol".
VNs are literary the opposite... one might as well add every other Japanese media because, welp, they are also somewhat closely related and might be adaptions, with some many VN fans also being fans of anime, manga or whatever. By the by, I am still kinda curious about the American Death Note Movie I heard a bit about... and wow, I really just looked it up (believe me pls) and the release is apparently scheduled for tomorrow, not that I am going to watch it then though, maybe someday.
|#3 by kiru|
2017-08-24 at 15:38
|Games differ. Haven't played this one, but as far as I know it has a pretty insane amount of text in it. Gameplay ratio doesn't really matter, as long as it has major parts with "VN style" storytelling. Someone who knows the JP version should chime in there, because just taking the beginning is a suboptimal approach.|
That said, this is just based on vndb rules, which are obviously not too good. I can understand the arguments here, and would probably agree, but that doesn't help us here.Last modified on 2017-08-24 at 15:40
|#4 by xero95|
2017-08-24 at 16:27
|This game has more text then Fate Stay/Night and the bible COMBINED. It more then fits if you were to strip away the gameplay, guess Blazblue and Guilty Gear shouldn't be here either then or phoenix wright or danganronpa! *Rolls eyes*|
|#5 by sakurakoi|
2017-08-24 at 17:02
because just taking the beginning is a suboptimal approach....it's actually an awful one, introductions do not count for they are always and for obvious reasons more "narrated"
as long as it has major parts with "VN style" storytelling
and when is a part considered major? How many characters?! (might sound very petty, actually also is but that's the only thing that could help here, namely to stop being vague)
not to mention that first off, to begin with, I did mention (literary yesterday) that there is an utter lack of proof to support the claim that it actually has novel-esque narration and while the screenshots have been updated after that... welp, I do not think it's because I mentioned it because there is still neigh.
That said, this is just based on vndb rules, which are obviously not too good
yeah, I did try to suggest something based on the Berlin Interpretation but welp, the few folks present in the thread apparently did not get the point of high value and low value factors and just disregarded them and the idea of high&low value factors (which do indeed offer some flexibility indeed) entirely.
This game has more text then Fate Stay/Night and the bible COMBINEDCitation needed
by the by, I got another game which is not here and of which the script size is around half a Gigabyte, well, tbh those also contain digital stage directions, however Fate Stay/Night is "just" 4MB (~1kk words like le bible) and you don't intend to tell me that just 1-2% is just written in text boxes. While 2 million words may appear to be much, how much is actually the main scenario and how much is gated behind however many gacha characters one has to each level up first to get a short story, cut into pieces? Seriously, if you want to plead your case, you best start to actually explain how it is so different from the other gacha games, otherwise these single assertions (even if repeated) ain't of any help.
and yes, unless it has actual narration and an uninterrupted experience is possible, without having to pay like $500€ or more and naturally disregarding outside factors (like when nature calls, you are sleepy or got to work, the point is artificial gating of content), this should not be considered an acceptable hybrid.Last modified on 2017-08-24 at 17:03
|#6 by anonymous|
2017-08-24 at 17:17
|Man, has the fate series gone downhill with its glorious cash cows. A shame, but understandable from a business standpoint as dumb fans are easy to abuse. They'll take anything as long as it has the name. Quality is long lost for series like thisLast modified on 2017-08-24 at 17:20|
|#7 by myougaunzen|
2017-08-24 at 17:20
|whatever decision ends up being made please dont base it on the english version since as far as i remember it only has the prologue and chapter 1 released so far. (as well as obviously from people who have actually read the story in it as opposed to people who dont want it here because lol gatcha game)|
in my personal opinion it could easily be left in vndb. the story is very much in visual novel format and there is a decent amount [of story]. and the story to gameplay ratio is pretty decent, especially in the more recent story entries where the mission amounts is lower in the story section as well as like every location having at least one quest costing 0AP (no battle, just text).
its probably easy for people to feel there is less text due to the fact most time is spent doing daily quests while waiting for event and proper story release dates (keep in mind event text is obviously much lower than proper story). but what we should be basing the decision on as to whether it counts as a visual novel should be in the story mode only (imo). 2 main things i want to point out for why i think it should be kept here is:
- 1) the story chapters tell the story almost entirely through the scenario text itself completely in standard vn format. sure its complemented by short battles in the format of the game, but for most battles the is a decent amount of text both before and after the battle. (when i say this im only talking about the actual story chapters and not events or character upgrade missions. although some events can have quite substantial story.)
- 2) yes i agree we dont want to have to add every single phone game/dmm online game/etc. but it this case i think it passes criteria. (i also think we can be a bit lenient towards spin-offs to already existing visual novels. for example adding to visual novel criteria something like, "more leniency allowed for spin-offs of already existing visual novels". for example i think melty blood being on vndb is fine due to being related to tsukihime, but the actual amount of text (as well as text to gameplay ratio) is tiny - not even comparable to fate grand order. similar games such as blazblue definitely deserve being here however due to it having a story section which is completely in vn format and with almost non-existent gameplay.
also unrelated to this discussion but as far as the "Fate/Grand Order Arcade" release entry, its a completely different game with completely different gameplay so i dont think it should be attached here (i also highly doubt it has any actually story mode either).
|#8 by PabloC|
2017-08-24 at 18:09
This game has more text then Fate Stay/Night and the bible COMBINED. It more then fits if you were to strip away the gameplay, guess Blazblue and Guilty Gear shouldn't be here either then or phoenix wright or danganronpa! *Rolls eyes*Blazblue is here because its story mode is a perfectly typical VN with properly narrated story-segments that are significantly longer than the duels that interrupt it.
Guilty Gear is NOT here, because its story mode is made of very short dialogues (made of merely a few lines) that have no narration and aren't that much longer than battles. And Phoenix Wright straight up doesn't belong here. >_>
As for "stripping away the gameplay" - even friggin Doom would fit here if you did that (since it has a few brief walls of text describing what happens after each episode). Gameplay ratio DOES matter.
If anyone wants to argue for keeping F/GO here, find a fragment that uses narration and isn't constantly interrupted by gameplay segments (that are longer than reading segments). Not from the beginning though - lengthy prologues aren't that uncommon in non-VN games.
Basically, something that looks like this: link (consistently narrated 6min of story, (skipped) brief duel (that often takes less than a minute), and so on)
and NOT like this: link (2min Dialogues; 0,5m Gameplay; 1m D; 3,5m G; 2m D; 9m G; 2m D; 5,5m G; 3m D).
All browser gatcha games are like this - a bunch of brief dialogues between longer gameplay fragments (plus some short, gameplay-free sex/loyalty/friendship scenes - whatever you do with characters). And all of that text appears only occasionally, during special events and story missions, while most of the time is spent on perfectly reading-free grinding. That's VERY far from the concept of VN. But if we make an exception for F/GO, we can't then argue against including something like Millennium War Aigis for example - since it looks exactly the same.
And allowing non-VN titles just because they are related to some VNs is a very bad idea (why not include Touhou games then? There are some Touhou-related VNs here after all. And then Mobile Suit Gundam: Extreme Vs, because Gundam...).Last modified on 2017-08-24 at 18:10
|#9 by desann|
2017-08-24 at 18:28
|As I commented in t9394.4, at least until Camelot all text parts, while far longer then gameplay parts at later chapters, had no actual narrative - they all dialogs only. |
Because of that despite text parts are long I don't think it belong here.
|#10 by rusanon|
2017-08-24 at 18:57
All browser gatcha games are like this - a bunch of brief dialogues between longer gameplay fragmentsProblem is, some of them are actually using ADV format with narrative.
This is how typical weekly event scene looks like in GS:
link Typical ADV screen, with all typical for VN functions like log/skip/auto
link Narration describing events, locations, people, items and so on.
Since gameplay ratio was removed from hybrids requirement, formally these games qualify as VN under current guidelines.
|#11 by kiru|
2017-08-24 at 19:08
|This issue is going to come up again and again, as games are here that shouldn't be while games get removed that feel much more "VN" like. |
I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to say "no gatcha, at all". As was already mentioned here, the idea behind gatcha games is completely different to what a VN should be. You play a VN to read and not to gather whatever figures/characters. This is actually easy to do, even disregarding the weird rules we have outside of that, although I wouldn't mind an actual solution there either. Gatcha games are easily defined and there shouldn't be a problem of deciding if a game is a gatcha game or not.
edit: Or they all get accepted. I see little reason to accept some, but not all here. All of them will end up pretty similar: Gameplay heavy.Last modified on 2017-08-24 at 19:09
|#12 by PabloC|
2017-08-24 at 19:39
Since gameplay ratio was removed from hybrids requirementIt's still there:
at least 50% of the game should be made of pure, VN-style reading.So titles that are too gameplay-heavy are out. That should deal with all gatcha games, since they are all based on daily grinding one way or the other.
|#13 by rusanon|
2017-08-24 at 19:52
|I've interpreted this point as "50% of content", not 50% of playtime.|
|#14 by PabloC|
2017-08-24 at 20:02
|^ Maybe it should be changed to "at least 50% of the playtime should be spent on pure, VN-style reading." or something like that? The current version isn't perfectly clear. That said, playtime can be very subjective...|
|#15 by kiru|
2017-08-24 at 20:40
|Correct, and we have enough hybrids that would get kicked by that. Eushully games may have a lot of text, but they are still more game than novel. Unless you try hard to ignore the gameplay as much as possible.|
And then you have funny cases like Material Brave, where over 90% of the gameplay is optional. How do you rate that? First and foremost, how are "kinda optional" things to be rated anyway? Often those things are at least somewhat necessary to do on difficulties that aren't easy.
|#16 by rampaa|
2017-08-25 at 02:02
|I think it belongs to here. It has obvious VN elements. It has a proper story and narration therefore I deem it as a VN, personally.|
Also, I've created "Gacha Game" tag -which is still waiting for a moderator to approve it- so that people who don't want to see any gacha on VNDB may simply exclude it and set that exclusion as default. This shouıld make both parties happy, methinks.
|#17 by seraphic|
2017-08-25 at 02:17
|^lack of story and narration aren't the issue here, though; the argument is over gameplay/story ratio. I guess the question is what separates gacha games from, say, Neptunia.|
|#18 by rampaa|
2017-08-25 at 02:23
|Well, we have Eushully and Alice Soft games here. I'm pretty sure they also don't meet the criteria that says "at least 50% of the game should be made of pure, VN-style reading.", yet here they are. If they qualify as VNs, so should F/GO.|
As for Neptunia, I've never played it, so I cannot comment on that, sorry.Last modified on 2017-08-25 at 02:31
|#19 by sakurakoi|
2017-08-25 at 02:29
|Some many are apparently deaf or rather can't read... or maybe are just defiant which neither adds to their credibility|
The following is a lists of few games that are included in the database, but are very much borderline cases. When arguing for another game to be included, do not, ever, refer to these games as examples.link
|#20 by rampaa|
2017-08-25 at 02:38
|Someone doesn't understand the word consistency yet try to lecture people in a rude manner, well done. |
Just because admin(s) said "don't bring these up" doesn't mean much. We are discussing about a "borderline" case again. The previous decisions do matter if we are trying to be consistent about what qualifies as VN and what not. If we don't care about consistency we may as well not discuss anything at all.Last modified on 2017-08-25 at 02:58
|#21 by sakurakoi|
2017-08-25 at 03:01
|I spot a deviant throwing a hissy fit because their unhelpful point (which has been repeated for many cases with the usual utter lack of evidence that the titles are so much alike and the not added even a bit more VN) has been refuted. |
Not to mention that accusation, which itself actually sufficiently proves the lack of understanding about understanding words vs actually following the concept which a word represents (which itself is again, just an accusation based on malevolent interpretation).
Somebody apparently also lied about the amount of words which they simply doubled considering where #9 leads us.
oh and by the by... if we'd be following that logic consistently
people who don't want to see any gacha on VNDB may simply exclude it and set that exclusion as default. This shouıld make both parties happy, methinks.we'd end up with plenty of tags on our exclusion list which is meant for preferences while guests apparently can just go and duck themselves for not registering.
I again advice anybody who wants to make it stay actually stay on topic and add to the discussion with facts instead of relying on rhetoric, ad hominem and outright claims that are apparently wrong.
|#22 by rampaa|
2017-08-25 at 03:33
|Great advice. Please listen to your own advice and stay on topic from now on. Calling people "deaf" (I presume you meant blind, but oh well) etc. is not staying on topic. I love how you try to insult people needlessly and play the victim afterwards. Truly well done.|
I've already laid my points. F/GO has obvious VN elements. Whilist it may not meet the criteria of having 50% story/gameplay ratio, VNDB already have games which also do not meet with that criteria. From that we can conclude a game may be a VN even if it does not meet that specific criteria. Of course, admins are the ones who will be the judge of this at the end. But I have every right to cite their previous decisions.
Presuming a gacha may be a VN -which I think it may- not wanting to see any gacha on VNDB *is* a preference.Last modified on 2017-08-25 at 03:42
|#23 by seraphic|
2017-08-25 at 03:43
|@20 Generally, those borderline cases are only very, very grudgingly included after literal months or even years of very heated discussion. Trying to add another one is going to annoy people; trying to add an ENTIRE GENRE as a borderline case is just going to get you accused of trolling/mental disability. As it says, "do not, ever," refer to those games as arguments for why something should be included, and it's a pretty hard rule. Doing so is probably going to have the opposite effect.|
|#24 by rampaa|
2017-08-25 at 03:54
|"A gacha may be a VN" doesn't mean "all gachas are VNs". So it's not adding an "entire genre". Just like there's an RPG tag but we don't add all RPGs to here. Seeing the difference between those two statements shouldn't be that hard. But oh well.|
I have nothing else to add to the topic. So I will not comment on the topic any further. Have a nice day everyone.Last modified on 2017-08-25 at 03:54
|#25 by sakurakoi|
2017-08-25 at 05:18
(I presume you meant blind, but oh well)no, "rather can't read" is what I just wrote and feel free tell me why you could not read that...
To begin with and to stay on topic (disregarding all your accusations which are based on your very feeling that are in return have your perception as source and that your perception should not be trusted is obvious by now), your sole and repeated point of "F/GO has obvious VN elements" is BS since to begin with the VN medium is partially the product of reduction.
More than a book, less than a game.
It is obvious that games can very well have plenty if not all (whatever all is now) VN elements like "my pace text", message skipping, auto mode, character sprites (or acceptable 3D models that do not move all over the place while talking), a message box at the bottom or all over the screen and even event CGs. Just because something has a literal VN mode, it does make a game necessarily an acceptable hybrid. I sure ain't seeing the Atelier or Fire Emblem Series here (which sure have a little narration indeed depending on the entry). Not to mention acerola or OneOne1 (along with plenty of other RPGs that can be devoid of combat, severely cutting time spend gaming) which sure have consistent narration in VN mode... and actually over 50% of the time may be spend reading, easily (especially in acerola's cheating series, small map&no combat&jumping from and to plenty of H scenes often within no minute).