Does not belong here

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Does it belong here?

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#51 by sakurakoi
2017-09-05 at 06:05
so I'd like to see evidence to the contrary that's at least as strong.
You might like to set a definite ultimatum. Or just delete it right away since it has been over a week since you wrote this while no one in favor actually bothered to support their position with actual evidence... apparently this is too difficult for whatever reason.

by the by, I'd like to claim that all ravens are white, here is the proof which even shows three of 'em: link <3
(yeah, the point is that it would not hurt to present several scenes where there is narration to support that it is used consistently and not just as a very rare device. Should not be too difficult either, if your claim was true and it sure'd be better to do more than just the bare minimum)
#52 by pkkodama
2017-09-05 at 14:56
@rusanon
I'm not talking about events. Events are just extras in the game.
I'm talking about the main story mode that can be finished, and you spend most of the time reading it.
#53 by seniorblitz
2017-09-23 at 00:43
I didn't think adding fate go would cause such a lenghty discussion (btw I'm the person who initially added fgo here and I also added the screenshots).
#54 by gabezhul
2017-10-04 at 07:45
So, I have been playing FGO for close to three weeks now, and here's my assessment: It is a really good, addictive gatcha-ge, but it is sure as hell not a visual novel. Not even close.

Pro-tip: When you can spend three days with a title where you are doing the main gameplay-loop without seeing a single text-box (in my case: grinding materials to ascend my shiny new Drake), it is not a visual *novel*.

Yeah, I can see how a lot of people might be fooled by the amount of text in the actual singularities, but it is all (I repeat, ALL) just cookie-cutter ADV dialog. I don't even think I've seen single line of narration, or even a first person inner thought of the protagonist, and I finished all the available content in the NA version up to the end of Okeanos.

So no, while it is a good game, it is definitely not a visual novel.
#55 by kiru
2017-10-04 at 08:29
Pro-tip: When you can spend three days with a title where you are doing the main gameplay-loop without seeing a single text-box

Don't say that. You can do that with a LOT of games here. Note: Can.
#56 by gabezhul
2017-10-04 at 08:33
Yeah, but how many visual novels are out there where you can literally run out of story to read, leaving only the gameplay? Sure, you can argue that there are hybrids like the Rance games or Kamidori, where you can put the story on hold while you are grinding, but as you just pointed out, it is just an *option*. You *can* do that. In this game, you *have* to do it, as the main gameplay loop is not "advance the plot -> grind -> advance the plot" but "grind -> strenghten your units -> grind -> try to get new units -> grind -> rush through the occasional story content so you can grind more efficiently -> grind". The entire game is centered around grinding, incremental advancements and the gacha. Let me put it this way: This is a game where, after the prologue, you can *entirely* forgo the story and focus on just the events and the dailies. The only things you lose this way are grinding spots (most can be substituted with dailies), unlocking one or two new units in the gacha, and a couple of free rare units/upgrades. In other words, this is a game where you can access 90% of the content and have the full gameplay experience without even touching the main story-line. I can hardly call that a visual *novel*.

But again, the entire point is mostly moot, as the game doesn't fit our criteria to begin with due to absurdly low long-term story/gameplay ratio combined with the lack of any form of narration.
#57 by kiru
2017-10-04 at 08:58
Certain harder difficulty settings are certainly allowing that. In several Eushully games for example. That's why I said: Can.

As far as I know, you can speed up a lot of stuff in these games if you pay. Would you absolutely need to grind for 3 days (however much hours that is) if you paid a lot or perhaps paid a lot and played more efficiently? (i.e. paying NOW wouldn't change things, but if you've bought a lot of good stuff earlier it'd have a lot of effect)


Gotta love hybrids.
#58 by gabezhul
2017-10-04 at 09:19
^ Read my updated post. As your brought up Eushully games, let me reiterate: Yes, you can spend a lot of time in those games doing nothing but grinding on higher difficulties. However, you have to first unlock those higher difficulties, and to do that you first need to finish the game, reading the entire scenario and all. In other words, the narrative is the base of those games that you have to complete in order to access more, harder gameplay that you can challenge just for the gameplay's sake.

In the case of FGO, the story is completely divorced from the gameplay loop. You can access 90% of the actual content without ever having to play the story-line, only focusing on the grinding of XP and materials and playing the events as they come. On top of that, if you do the opposite and rush through the story, at some point or the other you are going to hit a point where you can do nothing other than the main, grindy gameplay loop without any additional narrative.

Again, outside of the fact that the game doesn't even fit our criteria, even if it did, I would not add a game to the DB where you can either completely ignore the supposed novel aspect from the beginning, or run out of said supposed novel aspect without it affecting your enjoyment or the gameplay. That is not a visual novel.
#59 by kiru
2017-10-04 at 09:38
The problem here is that we are talking about a lot of "can" here. You can ignore the story in the fighting game spinoffs we have here as well. Higher difficulties don't always need to be unlocked. In fact, they rarely have to be. And so on.

I don't really care about the "narration" thing, as that was rightfully taken out from "what makes a VN". There are enough VNs out there with next to no narration to the point it feels alien whenever it pops up in those games. And having it still there for a hybrid makes no sense, as it's not a requirement for something being considered a pure VN either.
It's still hella messy. And I'm still for finding a way to settle this without the use of so much "maybe" and "can" or "could". Way to subjective. And in this case I'm simply for a very easy rule: No Gacha. As you say yourself, the Gacha idea is very incompatible with VNs. And we are bound to have some pop up that happen to feature narration and you could argue these into vndb through all these "can" and "could" loopholes.Last modified on 2017-10-04 at 09:38
#60 by gabezhul
2017-10-04 at 10:06
Read the guidelines properly before arguing, would you?
Visual Novel / Game hybrids that have the following characteristics:
The game consistently uses the novel narrative for telling its story. Examples include describing visuals, events, character actions or thoughts.
This point is ESSENTIAL - dialogues, no matter how extensive, are a characteristic of such game genres as RPGs, adventure games, dating simulations, etc., NOT of visual novels.
The story is told employing one of the known Visual Novel presentation methods such as ADV, NVL and their variations, consistently and for a significant length - at least 50% of the game should be made of pure, VN-style reading.

In case of hybrids, narration and story/gameplay ratio is incredibly important, and FGO misses the mark in both cases. Just because you subjectively don't think so, it wouldn't make the guideline suddenly moot.

As for your argument for fighting games, note that the ones in the DB (the Melty Blood and Blaz Blue series) both have story modes that are told through obvious VN segments. Yes, they can be played as pure tournament fighters without ever touching the story mode, but the story mode that is there is still a visual novel all the same. In this case it is not so, on top of being a hybrid that doesn't even require you to go through the story mode to get the full experience.

And no, if there is a gacha game with an actual storyline that features proper narration and VN segments, I am not against adding them to the DB, so long as they fit the criteria. Hell, if FGO had proper narration and the plot progression was more continuous instead of adding chunks of narrative in updates, I could probably make peace with the gameplay-loop and the gacha and welcome it into the DB. You cannot argue that requiring the presence of narration for inclusion is wrong and then turn around and try to exclude and entire genre just because of a gameplay feature.
#61 by kiru
2017-10-04 at 12:59
Over all this time you guys tried to define what a VN is, with very arbitrary "rules" that make little sense. Why?
Take EGS. ErogameScape. They have it easy, right? Erogame. Games with ero. And yet they have plenty of all ages titles. They even have filters specifically for finding those, or console releases or whatever. Why? Because these games are heavily related to their main focus and people playing them are interested in these titles.

So, why again do you try to define a VN with arbitrary rules? It is going nowhere. You should think the other way around: Which games are interesting for people who like VNs. Is it really narration? No. Hell no it isn't. There are plenty of traits that a VN CAN have, but doesn't necessarily need to have, and if those are present in other games in a major way, people may be interested in them. These games may not be VNs, but they are related.
Why is this DB existing? So people use it. It's not supposed to be a scientific work that's there to preserve something for historical value only and is part of some research. It's supposed to be a database for people to use. And this is what you are clashing against all the time. People expect certain games to be here. Sometimes quite a few do. And then it's not, gets deleted or whatever and all you can show is silly rules that don't make sense, have plenty of exceptions in the DB already and so on. For what reason? It's getting worse with every year, too.


Just ask yourself, why this whole thread is even a thing. Because the "rules" aren't clear enough or known? It's important to do some filtering and moderation, so that the DB stays how the majority likes them to be and related to its initial purpose (VNs). So no need for blatantly different games. But when people seriously argue about a given title, if you can't immediately see that it's really not fitting... who cares? One more exception doesn't hurt. The DB is supposed to be from the users for the users, so it's just weird to shut down something that plenty of users want to see here and you actually have to put quite some effort into "proving" it doesn't belong here. Am I really the only one who thinks that's pretty nuts?
#62 by xg70d
2017-10-04 at 13:58
@61:

how the majority likes them to be and related to its initial purpose (VNs)

Check the results of the poll. 49% voted this doesn't belong here, so I guess FGO should be deleted in the DB after all. Majority, right?

Also just because ErogameScape does it, it doesn't mean VNDB should follow.

Arbitrary rules? Care to explain how is requiring a narration arbitrary? Narration is required by novels to describe the characters, setting, etc. And guess what, visual novels are pretty much the same. I don't know how you can conclude that that rule doesn't make sense.

Which games are interesting for people who like VNs.
Now THIS is arbitrary and doesn't make sense. I like VNs because I like well-told stories. Games like Metal Gear, God of War, Disgaea, etc. have engaging stories as well, but it doesn't mean I should add them here.

One more exception doesn't hurt
Yea keep on saying that and the next thing we know, this is no longer a VN database.
#63 by xero95
2017-10-04 at 16:28
I like how we're still arguing about this, lmao.....
#64 by chipp12
2017-10-12 at 05:25
What about Axanael?

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