Muv-luv Alternative and Muv-luv [Spoiler Heavy]

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#26 by emmanuelvr
2011-08-11 at 01:42
There is hope at the end, why it's labelled as utsuge is because 90% of it is about making you feel like shit, unlike nakiges which start you off on a happy note, and gradually ease you into the sadness bit. So, although the re is hope at the end, don't expect to be happy for a large part of this VN, lol.
If you consider ML and MLA as a sole, whole story, it pretty much is the definition of Nakige.

@25: Poor chap, you haven't seen anything yet. Despite what you may think, the first 5 chapters are barely 25% of the total reading time of the VN. It gets better at the Coup arc, and it just gets better and better and worse and better and worse and kill me already please I don't want to suffer anymore and better.Last modified on 2011-08-11 at 01:43
#27 by himitsukou
2011-08-11 at 09:09
It isn't something I'd see as a nakige. And the game is in the middle range at most.Last modified on 2011-08-11 at 09:51
#28 by moogy
2011-08-11 at 09:21
sorry you have bad taste
#29 by himitsukou
2011-08-11 at 09:25
Sorry, I have to disagree.Last modified on 2011-08-11 at 09:34
#30 by gabezhul
2011-08-11 at 09:35
If we go by the "comic relief -> drama -> emotional climax" nakige formula, I would say each of the chapters (MLE, MLU, MLA) is following it, not to mention the chapters themselves in the perspective of the series. With that I mean MLE being the lighthearted, mostly fluffy comic relief, MLU being the dramatic part with the ambiguity about if the characters can deal with the problem and MLA is the conclusion where everything get sorted out... Yet I would still say that it is not a bread and butter nakige, more like a straight sci-fi forming its structure along the lines of the nakige formula... Hell, I'm not even sure of that. It's not like a Key VN where I can tell 90% of each route just by looking at the exposition, so I would say the similar element are only connotations of the effective construction of the story's superstructure...

Oh, and Himitsukou: You have below average taste. :PLast modified on 2011-08-11 at 09:37
#31 by overmage
2011-08-11 at 09:43
If you consider ML and MLA as a sole, whole story, it pretty much is the definition of Nakige.

Pretty much, MLA on its own though is more of an utsuge, but together with MLE/U, more of a nakige. There's far too little comic relief in MLA alone for it to be anything near nakige, though.

It isn't a nakige. And the game is in the middle range at most.
That's your opinion, stop talking like it's fact. "I feel the game is in the middle range" is fine, talking like you're some sort of authority on the matter is not.

sorry you have bad taste
Pretty much. There, I just spoke as if I had a right to decide the quality of your taste for you.

Also:

10 266
9 81
8 31
7 11
6 5
5 1
4 0
3 1
2 1
1 2

on VNDB. On erogamescape:

100 (!) 371
90~99 880
80~89 383
70~79 163
60~69 54
50~59 33
40~49 18
30~39 21
20~29 11
10~19 9
0~9 17

At the least, your taste is highly atypical.

Man, I have to continue this as well. Have read 6 chapters I think. Then I had to do some preparing for university exams, so I took a break.

You're not even scratching the surface layer of atoms on the oxide coating of the story. :PLast modified on 2011-08-11 at 09:47
#32 by himitsukou
2011-08-11 at 09:46
Says the King of Trolls.

Not as much as you make it to be. And it's not me who's going into a flamewar over someone's taste in visual novels.Last modified on 2011-08-11 at 09:57
#33 by overmage
2011-08-11 at 09:48
Exactly. Because you know, someone else started stating his opinion as fact, first.

You have just about zero right to complain about someone stating an opinon as fact, unless you retract your earlier comment. Talk about a hypocrite!
EDIT: The above paragraph was in response to a post which is now editedLast modified on 2011-08-11 at 09:58
#34 by gabezhul
2011-08-12 at 11:55
Hmmm... I think I will go with my original plan after all. I think I just need to have a dose of Sumika before I really dwell into MLA, so I will go replay MLE. I think I won't replay MLU though, the first few hours of MLA gave a good recap of it anyway. :P

BTW, how the hell did ANYONE get the bright idea that MLE and MLU can be skipped in favor of MLA on the first place? Not reading MLE to its fullest already chips away a good portion of the enjoyment-value of MLU alone, but there are just so many little nuances and references in MLA that one could never understand unless s/he played MLE that it baffles me that people even thought about skipping it... I mean, 90% of the characterization and the introduction of some later plot-elements happen in that arc, how the hell did people ever think that reading a plot-synopsis could ever convey the same? -.-'
#35 by overmage
2011-08-12 at 12:06
Yes, exactly. I 110% agree with you!
#36 by kiru
2011-08-12 at 13:11
@34: And I honestly think I'd be better off if I had ignored MLE. Regarding those "references": MLA makes those as if MLE would be the "desired" world. However all that those scenes invoke in me is a huge headache. I'm actually skipping through them and hope the shit ends soon. Well I know them anyway, so nothing lost. Without knowing MLE, those scenes would probably be much better as some sort of motivation-approach. It would also help me to not know Sumika... probably. I don't know.

So skipping MLE is imo really a matter of taste, so far it's not REALLY necessary to know and if you are unlucky it keeps haunting you in MLA like it does for me. Skipping MLU though... I wouldn't do that. Sure reading a summary of it would be ok I guess, but... I don't know.Last modified on 2011-08-12 at 13:14
#37 by gabezhul
2011-08-12 at 13:23
Honestly, I don't know why MLE is so polarizing. Yeah, it was a little ill conceived (the whole thing would have worked a lot better if it wasn't a clichéd harem world, there was no love-triangle and far less awkward comic relief), but it is a part of a larger picture. How can you say that it's better off ignored? It's as much of an integral, albeit admittedly weaker, part of the overarching story as MLU or any part of MLA. It's different, yes, but far from unneeded or unreadable.Last modified on 2011-08-12 at 13:25
#38 by overmage
2011-08-12 at 15:54
Around the middle of the game, both of you will understand why MLE is important. *whistles*
#39 by emmanuelvr
2011-08-12 at 17:50
The problem with MLE is that most people want to get into the REAL DEAL alien killing right off the bat. I've witnessed people who skimmed through MLE go and reread it later because they felt more attached to the characters being happy-go-lucky after the depression that is MLA.
#40 by gabezhul
2011-08-12 at 19:01
Okay guys, I'm going to give the game a preemptive 10 for one reason only: IMMERSION.
Also, I don't see why you think this game is depressing. I look out the window and see a more depressing world... -_-

Now if you excuse me, I need to get back to reading and also get a hold on MLAs OST ASAP because IMHO its FTW! :PLast modified on 2011-08-12 at 19:02
#41 by overmage
2011-08-12 at 19:32
I has the OST and yes it is FTW :P

Also, I'ma just whistle again innocently at your second sentence :P

MLA taught me to appreciate life; nothing in my life seems like it's actually sad anymore :XLast modified on 2011-08-12 at 19:33
#42 by hayate135
2011-08-12 at 22:05
Yeah, damn, gotta agree with overmage. The journey Takeru goes through in MLA by its end comes off as a non-escapist piece of fiction; it was one of the factors that put me in a disposition that appreciates life more, and facing my responsibilities without complaint or cowering away.

And the OST IS pure win, I support the notion of acquiring it! Tracks like this and this to name a few, definitely more than set up the mood and keep me coming back for more (not to mention is a god-tier step up from the usual mumbo-jumbo that was served in the first Muv-Luv). There's one other track that plays in the last hour or two of the game that I'd want to share; it's damn near guaranteed to make anyone render an epic tearful salute if you remember the moment it plays, but posting it would be a major spoiler, lol.Last modified on 2011-08-12 at 22:16
#43 by moogy
2011-08-12 at 22:16
Nanase Hikaru, Anze Hijiri, and Iwasaki Taku really did some amazing work on Alternative's soundtrack.
#44 by futsuu
2011-08-12 at 22:42
生命の炎 is one of my all-time favourites. Fucking amazing piece of music.

Taku and Hikaru did some great work on it too.Last modified on 2011-08-12 at 22:45
#45 by gabezhul
2011-08-12 at 23:15
Just finished the coup d'etat arc, and...

First of all, I would once again like to stress that the soundtrack is pretty damn amazing, it helped the slower parts tremendously. This story also has a ton of powerful moments, and they are placed quite surprisingly. What I'm trying to say is, because the story has such a huge lore with MLE and MLU, it doesn't need much buildup to create such moments simply because the groundwork was already laid down by the previous "chapters".
I also really loved the pacing of the story this far, though the frequent "flashback to two minutes before" moments did get me out of the flow a few times.

My two real qualms are that, compared to the enormous buildup, the end of the coup d'etat arc feels severely lacking, (even if it is technically not the end of anything plot-wise) and Takeru.
Our dear protagonist turned out reasonably awesome, especially compared to his previous incarnations, but his inner angst became quite annoying quite fast. I don't understand why they dedicated the whole arc to him finding his reason to... uhhh... think the same way he did before, I guess... -.-'
Seriously, it just felt like he was running in circles, which is actually not really a bad thing characterization-wise, but doing it for so long and so repeatedly was still a bad idea, or at least I feel so.

Also, it's not really a flaw, but I seriously expected him to be a little more... I don't know... badass, maybe? I mean, it was kinda beaten into the reader that, because of his Valgernon experience and shit, he is a mech-driving Jesus. Add in the fact that his machine was fine-tuned with the new OS and that the frame itself was supposed to be tailored specifically for his reckless maneuvering, and I was expecting that, even if he cannot take on veterans, at lest he would totally stand out the crowd with his acrobatics and people would get totally freaked out by his maneuvers, yet the greatest compliment he ever got was "not bad... for a cadet", not to mention that he seemed no more faster, agile or having more technique than any run of the mill mook... It was just disappointing... -_-Last modified on 2011-08-12 at 23:18
#46 by futsuu
2011-08-13 at 01:13
Finish the game ffs.
#47 by emmanuelvr
2011-08-13 at 01:30
I look out the window and see a more depressing world... -_-

I was about to answer this and ask you where the fuck do you live, but then I scrolled down and saw that you have barely finished the Coup arc.

Enjoy your wrist slitting episode 7.

I don't understand why they dedicated the whole arc to him finding his reason to... uhhh... think the same way he did before, I guess... -.-'
That's not it at all. He isn't finding a reason, he is finding the determination to do shit he wouldn't do under normal circumstances, many of which can be considered dirtying his hands.

Also Sadagoshima.

Go away before you get spoiled.Last modified on 2011-08-13 at 01:33
#48 by gabezhul
2011-08-13 at 08:05
Go away before you get spoiled.
Too late. As the discussion board moderator, I have to read most of the comments here, and even though I tried to actively avoid threads with possible spoilers, I would still say I know about 40 to 50 percent of the general outline of the coming events, like, say, that "Sumika" is going to turn out to be unit 00, that she will get tenderized at some point, that Takeru will end up in a harem-world (the Extra part of Alternative) created by Sumika directly for him, stuff like that...

About the whole "where the fuck do you live" thing: In Hungary. And if you wonder why I feel the way I do, here's an interesting tidbit: because of the recent rise of the swiss frank, about one million people in my country will lose their homes (one-tenth of the total population), and they also want to raise the amount of work-hours with lower payments and cut the unemployed support short. With other words, shit is ready to hit the fans here at any moment, and with my neighborhood, I wouldn't be surprised to find myself waking up with a slit throat one morning... -_-

But back on MLA waters: I later realized that I didn't express myself clearly when it came to my problem with Takeru, but I couldn't really correct it while asleep. :P
The thing is, I can clearly see the importance of him finding the determination to dirty his hands, it being a substantial phase of his character-development. My real qualm was with the length of this development. Takeru started off with a clear goal and a firm mindset, and as such, him being so wishy-washy about the whole issue seemed more like an effort to set up the long-winding discussions about the matter with Meiya and Yuuhi than genuine character-development. I think it would have been a little more in-character with the current Takeru to circumvent that whole angst-part ans reach a conclusion a lot sooner. But I digress, I'm admittedly picking nicks here, and this had nothing to do with the actual enjoyment-value of the story, it was just something I felt I had to voice. :P

Finish the game ffs.
Uhh, like I'm not trying, but with my schedule being hectic as hell it's a wonder I could squeeze out that 9-10 hours it took to read this far. Hell, hectic is not even a good word for this, I don't even know where I will be and what I will be doing in ten minutes, so it's pretty hard to start reading when I can be (and usually am) interrupted any moment. BTW, considering the previous fact (that it took me roughly nine and a half hours to read till the end of the coup d'etat arc), how long would you think it would take to read the rest? I'm just asking for a rough estimate so I could manage my time better...Last modified on 2011-08-13 at 08:17
#49 by emmanuelvr
2011-08-13 at 08:41
I respectfully disagree, since I find "I should do this!" that he found at the end of Unlimited/beginning of Alternative is completely different to the level of determination it requires to do some shit he'll have to do later. He just hasn't lived through the shit needed yet. He was mostly sheltered during Unlimited (or from what he remembers/we know) and you can't expect someone to be able to sacrifice people right off the bat. He's most likely ready to put his life on the line and kill aliens, but he isn't ready to sacrifice *other human beings* himself. He is a massive "Humans should stick together" dude. Hell, one of the best characters with the best relationship with Takeru is Yuuko EXACTLY because of this whole issue of doing whatever is needed.

I can understand if you found the monologues and dialogues about it somewhat long-winded or something, it's an opinion I can accept (wether I agree or not is irrelevant) without a proper argument and beating the living shit out of me at it.
On the other hand, that "Takeru should be less angsty and accept all that by now" when considering the kind of person he is, the circumstances and the actions he will have to create, do and put up with in the future, doesn't sit well with me and I'll argument you to death :P

As for the rest, I don't mean to compare a piece of fiction to reality on the same level, but just because I can compare it while knowing it's just fiction (and I hope you won't be offended or anythig), in Hungary one-tenth of the total population will be homeless, in MLA five-sixths are dead and the rest can barely survive. And let's not mention TDA~

And I think MLA is about 30-40 hours long depending on your reading speed.Last modified on 2011-08-13 at 08:44
#50 by gabezhul
2011-08-13 at 09:02
I won't argue with you about Takeru's determination and motivations since, as I have already stated, these are my subjective opinions. I just stated them now so that you know where I came from, though I still hold my claim that I would have developed his character differently at this point... But whatever, I shall see how he will turn out later. :P

On the monologues, no I actually found them really interesting and well-written and I loved the discussions about the matter. I just feel they took a little too long while it was obvious how Takeru would choose from the very beginning... But I digress, this is once again, completely subjective.

Finally, about the last issue... You see, it's somewhat hard for me to read certain parts of this VN exactly because it's not really an escapist story. The problem lies within the fact that it idealizes the MLE world too hard and makes the MLA world into a typical crapsack-world when, in fact, they are all too similar. Maybe because I'm not Japanese but I cannot appreciate the "peaceful" MLE world. My country has never really been a great place to live in and the recent economical downturn turned it into an even more shitty place. I might have been joking why I said that before, but I actually believe that if things continue down this road, we might end up in some insane anarchy over here, snakes and ladders. When I read this story, I'm just being constantly reminded of such possibility, because the events are played just like how they would happen in real life (personal agendas, dissension, infighting, you name it....), and it also irks me how the world of MLE, the world that most clearly resembles ours, is presented as something like a paradise on Earth when, in fact, it's the same, just with more make-up and shiny glitters on the surface... As my university-professor once said: "If you were to ask anyone five years before WWII, none of them believed it would happen. Now go out and ask people if world war three would happen in five years..."
...
But once again, I digress. This is not exactly the topic of this discussion, so I will refrain from voicing my real-world problems in the future, I just needed to get this off my chest.