To split, or not to split? General Thread
|#1 by Ileca|
2017-10-10 at 02:21
|< report >On the model of t8650, use this thread to argue/ask if a VN entry should be split or not.|
I will start: what about Fault Milestone 2? I am asking those who read Jou/Side:Above, wouldn't it be better to split Jou/Above from Ge/Below? Two years later, this part is still not released and we had Silence the Pedant in-between. What's the point in keeping them linked apart from the fact I assume it's a two parts story (is it?)?
|#2 by Ileca|
2022-05-07 at 05:59
|< report >I think Mamiya Mami wa Iyashite Agetai should be split into three parts.|
They are like Uchi no Kanojo, Uchi no Imouto, and Uchi no Koibito, from the same brand. Basically, you buy the volume you want. They are stand alone releases with the same concept and setting.
The problem is, when do you split heroine routes and when do you not?
What about Chika Idol Choukyou Keikaku ~Attribute Master~? Or Motoyan Oku-san to Gyaru Musume-chan? Both don't currently have compilations and probably never will. Not that it is relevant if they are just bundles.
We already have a number of VN like that:
* Demiparadoxia ∞ Hookerstic - Hokujou Hen/Demiparadoxia ∞ Hookerstic - Nanka Hen
* Hitokata no Ou ~Akashi no Kuni~/Hitokata no Ou ~Oru no Mori~
* Ore no Dorei ~Hikawa Shizuku/Ore no Koibito ~Hikawa Shizuku
What about splitting if:
* routes are separated from the beginning
* they are not gathered inside a single release in an integrated way (started from the same application, and by that, I do not mean sharing an installer), meaning, bundles don't count, physical or not
* relation between those parts must be "alternative version"
* those parts should not be part of a bigger picture, like pieces of a mystery, they must be stand alone games. You don't have to buy all volumes to have access to the whole story <-- not sure about this bullet point
In the case of Oku-sama no Kaifukujutsu, being a dum dum, when editing, I didn't make the connection with the fact the physical release has 2 DVD. It appears to be a bundle and would warrant separate VN entries if my proposition is accepted.
My only fear is mobage but I couldn't find examples of such games. I would have thought that releasing games in parts would allow their customers to download small chunks, saving space, not to mention it fits their business model.
|#3 by NaioHoras|
2022-05-07 at 08:04
|< report >yeah, it's weird to see complete releases under a single VN entry like Chika Idol Choukyou Keikaku ~Attribute Master~ and Mamiya Mami wa Iyashite Agetai. it basically doesn't fit the definition of "a single story unit" as they don't share anything beside the same setting and concept, meaning they don't share the story at all. maybe a short prologue/common route like in Pure Marriages series link, but that's it. so they can be enjoyed separately, and furthermore, they are sold separately from the beginning. |
so I basically agree with the first point (in fact, I'm gonna split Mamiya Mami wa Iyashite Agetai right now before it's too late, as there is only one released release entry currently. EDIT: done).
as for your other points, I'm not pretty sure since there are a bunch of cases on the db: a story unit that is not sold as a standalone intially, but then included later in a bunch of different games and it is integrated in each games (like Muv-luv's fiasco, now split into entries); an Anthology / Story Compilation that sold separately later (currently a single entry link) enabling the existence of this tag Anthology; is a part of a bigger picture (9-series, currently split into several entries); and Higurashi series (I don't need to explain this one, do I?).
so I can't comment much on them, unless we treat those games as exceptions or something, but.... that comes with a bunch of problem as well...Last modified on 2022-05-07 at 08:21
|#4 by Ileca|
2022-05-07 at 09:08
|< report >To be clear, I am not including VN that are split in multiple parts, later or at the same time as the main single volume. I am also not talking about stuff like anthologies that are made of different stories but are sold as a single game.|
This is only for cases where the "parts" are independent from each other and you can only find them gathered inside bundles/compilations.
The reasoning behind splitting here is that, if you don't, you will have to pay for multiple self-sufficient parts, which means, the probability of users paying only for the part they want is high, forcing them to mark those VN as "dropped" and only voting on a part of the entry. This is a matter of convenience because if you have to pay five times for five self sufficient routes, you will have tons of possible combinations depending on the user (paying for one route, three, or all of them, etc.). It's wholly different from a single game with multiple routes where you pay one time and everything is available. It is also different from games where every part share a common story and where you are expected to read everything.
If you think that Chika Idol Choukyou Keikaku is not a single story unit, it means you think that every charage in existence is not a single story unit. They are exactly the same but don't share a common route (or they do but the common route is duplicated in each volume and that's what they do when they split later).
|#5 by NaioHoras|
2022-05-07 at 11:42
|< report >I heard you the first time, that's why I said "they can be enjoyed separately, and furthermore, they are sold separately from the beginning", meaning for a release to have a separate vn entry, a distinct story (scripts) and how it was initially are important. and yes, I do think that Chika Idol Choukyou Keikaku and a lot of charage are often not a single story unit. so while VNs might do share common route, when it's clear that we don't need the other game to enjoy that particular VN (i.e. it's not part of "bigger picture"), then it's clear the VN is not one story unit. and since Chika Idol Choukyou Keikaku released independently from the very beginning, then a split is justified.|
but nevermind the first paragraph of this post. the more I think about it, is not it easier to list why we need to put releases under a single VN entry? I can think a lot of reasons to split an entry, but only few reasons we keep a release under a single VN entry:
- dependency (such as add-ons, localizations, etc):
- similar scripts.
- trials (self-explanatory)
- partials, now this is where it becomes problematic.
I can understand when the partial releases come from an initially complete release, but got re-released split later. but, what about the others? what is "partial" actually means?
we already have VN relation feature to facilitate independent partial release.
Uchi no Kanojo, Uchi no Imouto, and Uchi no Koibito are independent but are in same series? we have VN relation for that.
a VN is an incomplete experience without playing the other installment? we sequel-prequel VN relation for that.
hell, partial releases like chapter "1, 2, 3..." are basically sequel-prequel, side story, and what not.
we can even merge Muv-Luv and Muv-luv Alternative as a single entry "Muv-Luv" if we want, since Alternative is basically continuation of Unlimited, which is part of the original Muv-luv. we can even take it that Muv-luv is chapter one, Unlimited is chapter 2, Alternative is chapter 3. but I think we can agree that that is just plain stupid (this example is little off since Muv-Luv and Muv-Luv is part of the same original release r8, but you know what I meant).
we basically have the upsides for splitting "independent partial entries".
but if we split every "partial" entries, the db will become a mess with things such as Himegoto Union Motto H! have its own VN entry, and also a bunch of VN entry title will looki like "Awesome VN chapter 1", "Awesome VN chapter 2", etc.
the most useful thing to use "partial" is for patreon releases.
in the end, the most valid reason I can think of to merge or even split an entry when it comes to partial release is actually... cleanliness.
damn I'm woke
TL:DR don't know dude. I'd split those entries you mentioned if it were me and do it for future entries as well, and I'm not gonna think too much about it. unless... it has obvious clarifier like "chapter 1, chapter 2,..." or something.Last modified on 2022-05-07 at 12:07
|#6 by beliar|
2022-05-07 at 19:35
|< report >|
in the end, the most valid reason I can think of to merge or even split an entry when it comes to partial release is actually... cleanliness.You have hit the nail on the head, mon ami. "Aesthetics", as I have called it, is my primary motivation for splitting the entries. If I see that a VN entry gets too cumbersome and hard to read due to multiple releases in different languages, different age ratings and whatnot, I usually end up splitting the VN into separate entries.
You could say that it's prudent to split the VN, if its releases are self-contained and could be played as separate VNs, while the chapters that directly follow each other should be under the main vn title. However, many Patreon VNs are split into Seasons or Chapters not based on some plot event, but because the build gets too big (3D eats space like nothing else). One could argue in many cases these Chapters should be under a single VN entry, but in cases like Fetish Locator: Week 1 I have split the entry, because the entry simply grew too much to accommodate all weeks and still look good.
|#7 by Ezezin|
2022-05-07 at 22:26
|< report >But there is one instance in this DB where we have a lot of unofficial patches as single VN entries: Doki Doki Literature Club!. I mean, look at those entries, most (if not all) are files that needs to be applied to the base game, and they are treated as full standalone releases. Technically we should put them in the main VN entry as unofficial releases (partial in some cases), but there are a lot of them, and some have a completely different story from the base game that you can't say they are the same game anymore.|
For this reason I agree with Beliar reasoning about Aesthetics, otherwise the main VN entry would be a mess.Last modified on 2022-05-07 at 22:29
|#8 by 4digitmen|
2022-05-07 at 22:51
|< report >Honestly (unless I'm not aware of it) there should probably be a setting or a dropdown to hide unofficial entries/fan games from displaying on an official entry (much like we can do for other language releases). Like I can probably speak for the website when I say that most people ignore fan games, and the site would look a lot cleaner if I could just hide them.|
|#9 by beliar|
2022-05-07 at 22:54
|< report >@Ezezin: Erm, they are completely different games that are distributed as patches to the original. This situation is not unique, as there are other games that were at least initially distributed as patches to another game, like J.B. Harold no Jikenbo - Kiss of Murder - Satsui no Kuchizuke or Witches & Woodlands. Think of these as total conversion mods. If our database included RPGs, Nehrim, or Fallout: Resurrection would also have separate entries, despite requiring the respective original games to play.Last modified on 2022-05-07 at 22:55|
|#10 by Ileca|
2022-05-07 at 23:35
|< report >I checked Motoyan Oku-san to Gyaru Musume-chan and both sub VN share a common prologue. The gyaru part (second part) asks you if you want to skip the prologue it duplicated. I thought Frame said that he had planned to release an unified release but, reading his blog, I found that nowhere, and given how three years and multiple games later, nothing was released, it's fair to assume it will never happen.|
However, before splitting, I would like confirmation that they are not prequel-sequel because, it's not exactly a mother route + daughter route but more like mother route + oyakodon route. Does that mean the oyakodon route assume you have read the mother route? If that's the case, split there should not be.
|#11 by Ileca|
2022-05-08 at 22:00
|< report >Beliar, given that r90221 is a bundle made of 2 DVD, 1 route per DVD, do you agree that Oku-sama no Kaifuku Jutsu should in fact be split as they are stand alone routes?|
ゲーム本編 DVD-ROM2枚 （純愛編・寝取られ編 各1枚）
|#12 by beliar|
2022-05-09 at 15:54
|< report >|
Beliar, given that r90221 is a bundle made of 2 DVD, 1 route per DVD, do you agree that Oku-sama no Kaifuku Jutsu should in fact be split as they are stand alone routes?Not sure. I feel that this is quite a slippery slope. Personally I think it doesn't matter that the routes are on separate discs. It's a single package with a single name (only the routes have different names), released on the same date as the digital edition. By this logic we could also split Muv Luv Extra and Unlimited into separate games, as they come on separate discs with different names printed on them. That said, this is not a hill I want to die on, so if you feel strongly that the title should be separated, you can do it, however I fear this might open the doors to a lot of bullshit in the future.
|#13 by Ezezin|
2022-05-13 at 12:14
|< report >Shouldn't Hoka no Otoko no Seieki de Haramu Toki 1 & After Story ~Fusuma no Mukou de Seieki o Sosogikomareteiru Tsuma~ be an entry for the after story only, with every release under it relating to both the main entry and this one?Last modified on 2022-05-13 at 12:15|
|#14 by NaioHoras|
2022-05-13 at 12:45
|< report >it's already like that... you just need to rename the VN entry.|
|#15 by qpo|
2022-05-14 at 03:45
|< report >There're some companies were previously doujin groups, and continue to operate under their old names after becoming a company, like TYPE-MOON, LOVERSOUL and Never Knows Best. Since that "doujin" field for release entries is gone, I think their producer entries need to be split from one into two, one for doujin period and another for company period.|
Clown Works Kyojitsu Gairon is an episodic VN and probably should be merged.Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 06:32
|#16 by kamigigana|
2022-05-16 at 13:47
|< report >This is for a project of mine:|
Augma II Arc I
Combining Arc II and Arc I is incorrect. I haven't really referred to Augma II as just 'Augma II.' Arc I and Arc II are both radically different works in terms of how the releases work. I'd compare it to the Dies Irae split, as well as how Dive1 and Dive2 are split. I'd like to have the 'Augma II' release removed from the page, and the title renamed to Augma II Arc I. There won't be a combined release titled 'Augma II.' I probably should release more information about how the releases will work, but alas.
The argument for not splitting was that Arc II's release with Arc I wouldn't have a rewrite, but it will. It's not entirely public information, but if it helps clear the air, I'm fine with saying that.
Thread for more information.Last modified on 2022-05-16 at 15:24
|#17 by Ileca|
2022-05-18 at 22:12
|< report >For the record, I checked three "releases" from Chika Idol Choukyou Keikaku ~Attribute Master~ and they all share a common prologue minus some negligible staging improvement (like the lips of Kasai Airi being redrawn or one voice being different, etc.) until the MC chooses the idol from the corresponding volume. Meaning it could have an all in one release.|
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