Rape by Non-Protagonist tag - useful or not?
|#1 by nutellafan|
2017-11-08 at 00:32
Some may remember a few weeks ago as part of paring down the Tags moderation queue, I started a topic, Tags moderation queue discussion. In it, we talked about a tag called Rape Only by Protagonist and decided that it wouldn't be useful. so I denied the submission.
However, some time later, the original creator responded with:
...I was the one who suggested the tag "Rape Only by Protagonist". Because rape in general bothers me but if it's done only by the protagonist it kinda makes it bearable, I guess? Because most of the time readers assume the role of protagonist and people tend to forgive themselves/protagonist rather easily. At least that was my train of thought.
Basically I wanted to avoid rape that is done by any non-protagonist and thought this tag would help that cause. As is, there's no way of knowing whether or not a heroine gets raped by a non-protagonist (which is something I want to avoid)
Anyway, just wanted to make the goal of the tag clear. A tag like "Rape by Non-Protagonist" would be also helpful to avoid the situation I've described...
With the submission's intent now clearer, your opinion may have changed as well. Either way, if you're interested in commenting on the utility of this tag, let's keep the line of discussion open for 2 weeks, after which a *final* decision will be reached, whatever the result.Last modified on 2017-11-08 at 00:32
|#2 by warfoki|
2017-11-08 at 00:48
|One thing that comes to mind right away is what about the gangrape scenes? This tag would be mostly applicable to nukiges in which the protagonist just rapes every heroine. However those VNs usually feature at least one gangrape scene with the protagonist being involved, but not the the only non-victim participant.|
|#3 by surferdude|
2017-11-08 at 00:54
|deletedLast modified on 2017-11-08 at 00:58|
|#4 by xg70d|
2017-11-08 at 02:26
|At least for me it's not useful. I agree with all the points explaining on why it's denied.|
However, some may find it useful. The reasoning is somewhat hypocritical, but you could compare it to those who likes Netori but can't stand NTR.
|#5 by bunny1ov3r|
2017-11-08 at 02:58
|I always find it hilarious that you guys take tags so seriously. |
But if I were to express my opinion (seriously), I think the dude got a point. I can see the tag as something that might help people like original creator to avoid getting emotionally scarred, just like the "hypocritical" netori/ntr comparison as #4 said. This tag would be kind of useful for me as well. It's like a good-to-know warning trigger flag.Last modified on 2017-11-08 at 02:59
|#6 by tyr|
2017-11-08 at 04:49
|I'm against the inclusion of any of these "warning tags" for one simple reason:|
YOU PEOPLE NEVER MARK THESE TAGS AS SPOILERS!!!
Rape Only By Protagonist is again a tag that should only be used with at least "minor spoiler" settings, but I know you will not do it in order to "warn" others, thus ruining the game with one glance at its entry page for everyone who cares about its story.
I wish for the day that any newly added tag is by default marked as a spoiler and needs to be manually marked as a non-spoiler. But until then, stop forcing your pointless fee fee tags on others and the best way to do this is to not include them to begin with.
|#7 by kratoscar2008|
2017-11-08 at 05:16
|I say do it.|
I have missed lots of games because at first glance you could just judge a game based on its premise and skip it.
Take link for example.
So you have the basic premise that the elf heroines are abducted and will be raped/trained. We all know its a popular "feature" to have elves being raped by Orcs, gangbangs and other assorted monstruosities in fantasy settings so people who prefer to do the deed "themselves" avoid it. For that porpuse the high ammounts of rape tag doesnt tell me anything specific about the game. The game in question has only the protag doing the raping and the game also offers happy endings with only 2 endings being bad (But the MC is still the only one fucking them) for the elf heroines (Which are basically MC fullfilling his revenge, in the rest he drops it or decides to keep the elves for himself) so at least the heroines gets some kind of happy outcome in the end.
That also happened to me when i avoided BISHOP games because they are rape. However nearly half of their catalog has rape being done only by the MC since the premise is usually them training girls to be their personal sex slaves even when its revenge themed (Like Serika route in Chijoku no Seifuku) and them not liking sharing girls. A tag like "Rape by Non-Protagonist" would had saved me the horror of seeing one of the heroine´s in UK being gangbanged. I dont care if its avoidable because i always have a 100% CG save for the games i get so it would appear on the CG gallery hence i got rid of UK.
I remember i made a thread for a tag with "MC only H-scene" that went nowhere and i believe this tag would serve almost the same porpuse (For rape games at least) and many others too.
Aniways i approve of this tag.
#2 well the "Rape by Non-Protagonist" would apply to gangbangs with or witouth MC since the girl is still being subject of rape by participants other than MC so it works.
#4 Well in my opinion when the MC is the only one doing it i at least can see it as that the girls is hooked to the MC and only sex with him would satisfy her, its makes it so that at least the two end as a couple of sorts in a relationship semi-lovely instead of what say, Taimanin Asagi does where she just becomes addicted to sex itself and she fucks anything with a dick.Last modified on 2017-11-08 at 05:22
|#8 by rusanon|
2017-11-08 at 05:32
|As someone who likes to read chikan/rape nukiges, I guess it would be semi-useful as I prefer games where protag keeps all heroines for himself, w/out aforementioned gang-rape scenes and such.|
|#9 by kratoscar2008|
2017-11-08 at 05:36
|Yeah that one too. As i mentioned with fantasy rape settings, most usually stick to a generic formula and in my and your case are gangbangs. But you have those who dont follow but we wont play because at first glance looks like it will follow the generic formula.|
link this one is MC only if you havent by the way #8.
|#10 by cnkx|
2017-11-08 at 06:44
|deleted, thought it was a different tagLast modified on 2017-11-08 at 06:51|
|#11 by eacil|
2017-11-08 at 06:55
I say do it.If by that you mean "deliberately get spoiled to spare the spoilers to other people" then I call that a pretty dumb answer.
I also got spoiled by ending type of tags when the only thing I wanted to know is if the game had some gameplay feature (both are under technical tab). It's not normal to have a VN totally ruined just because of people with no care whatsoever for the story. A lot of tags (all Ending and other stuff for insecure babies like Only Avoidable Netorare Scenes) should be flagged and unflaggable as spoiler by default.
|#12 by rrazorr|
2017-11-08 at 11:17
|As someone that's disturbed by the thought of a heroine getting raped by someone other than the protag, this'd be definitely helpful to me. I don't like rape in general but at least I can tolerate it a bit since it's the protag. I avoid so many VNs that have Rape tag just because I can't be sure who's raping the heroines. Please, consider adding "Rape Only by Protagonist" tag.|
|#13 by infernoplex|
2017-11-08 at 12:05
|I'm not going to comment about the tag itself here but I've to agree with one point said in #6 post by@tyr - You people rarely mark spoilers, whenever I look at the tag votes even on some popular VNs people tend to only sometimes mark spoilers accordingly and mostly they don't even bother. They just add tags and don't even mention if it's "no spoiler", "minor spoiler" or "major spoiler"...|
|#14 by entra|
2017-11-08 at 18:59
I wish for the day that any newly added tag is by default marked as a spoiler and needs to be manually marked as a non-spoilerThat's a wonderfully simple but effective solution. I'd previously suggested some of the ending tags default to at least minor spoiler but I like this idea more.
In regards to the tag itself, I'm indifferent.Last modified on 2017-11-08 at 19:02
|#15 by yami-anarchy|
2017-11-08 at 23:10
|Since many voiced that they'd find the tag useful, I believe it should be added. However, in the case of tag being approved, it should be the Rape Only by Protagonist tag and not the Rape by Non-Protagonist. My reasoning for this is that a person not too familiar with the tags, looking for a "safe" VN, will overlook the VNs they might enjoy because they will only see the Rape tag and feel doubtful not knowing that it is the Rape by Non-Protagonist tag they should use as guidance. In the opposite case, it is immediately clear that the VN they are checking out is safe.|
I know that people are divided between whether or not some tags should be added because they can be dangerous if put in the wrong spoiler category, but I think that that shouldn't affect the legitimacy of the tag itself and that it's an issue on a whole other level. If we were to take away the spoiler tags, it would leave the database quite lacking in my opinion.
|#16 by warfoki|
2017-11-09 at 00:21
That's a wonderfully simple but effective solution.
It really isn't. Majority of the tags are not spoilerous, so having to click on "not spoiler" for every single one would be quite a hassle when you tag a lot of things. Also, if that would be the default, people would probably still forgot about it and now the majority of the tags would be hidden, so you would have to turn on the spoilers for pretty basic info as well.
I agree that SOME, definitely not all, tags could be spoilerous by default (ending ones for example). This, however, is outside of our jurisdiction. Yorhel is the only one who can implement any such changes.Last modified on 2017-11-09 at 00:22
|#17 by kratoscar2008|
2017-11-09 at 01:57
|Not including tags just because the users might not spoiler it is not a good reason, otherwise we wouldnt have tags at all since every tag regarding story or scenes is an spoiler in itself and wouldnt exist under that reasoning.|
Plus i think its most likely someone would be happy to be alerted of NTR content than mad that they got spoilered the surprise NTR.
If i remember well my sugestion of "H-scene only with protagonist", which EGS uses, was rejected just because many VNs would need tagging which bothered me since again it was just because the users end rather than the tag legitimacy.
|#18 by tyr|
2017-11-09 at 03:25
|I guess I have to explain my reasoning for calling the tag pointless.|
"Rape by (non-)Protagonist" is meaningless because it does not have any inherit meaning. It only describes an act, but without context. Tags should always have an implied context.
For example, we don't have a "girlfriend sleeps with another man"-tag. Instead, we have two tags which imply the same act, but with a different context; NTR and Netori, because the context is what matters to people who look at/search for tags, not the act itself. People search for a "genre" or a general "theme", not it's actual implementation. Because that is a spoiler. People want to know what they can "expect", they don't want to know what will actually happen because the fun in reading a story is to find it our yourself.
Let me give you a very common example, why the tag in question here is meaningless for the purpose it was invented for:
There is a very common subgenre of sex-slave training nukige, where the protagonist will rape the heroine into submission. However, after he brainwashed her and made her his slave, he often will share her with other people to demonstrate his success in transforming her into a sex slave. At this point she is willingly doing it, since she accepted and maybe even embraced her fate as a sex slave.
The tag "raped only by protagonist" will apply to this vn and the tag "raped by non-protagonist" does not, even though it is not the kind of vn the people who suggested these tags wanted to find / not find with it.
>>because the tags have no implied context, they became meaningless
I give you second common example to show you the other side, too:
Imagine a similar eroge, but this time the protagonist wants his trained slaves for himself. It's the kind of game the people who suggested these tags wanted to find. However, during the training of the girls the player can do some things wrong, so the heroines might not turn out how he wanted them to turn out. There might be a bad end where a heroine goes insane and participates in gangbangs on her own against the will of the protagonist, because he messed her up and she became a nymphomaniac.
This is only a bad end which exists to further strengthen the main theme of the game, building your own devoted harem, by showing you how it should not end after you messed up. Even though it has such a bad end, it's still the kind of protagonist-centered rape game we were trying to find with the new tags, but again they don't apply here because of the absolute nature of its name and the lack of implied context.
We have to understand that bad endings are very common and do not exist to subvert a theme but instead enhance it by showing the undesired outcome. Would you tag a romance vn not as true love because it has a default bad end where the player didn't succeed in making the girl love him? Of course not. The existence of this ending does not subvert the "true love" theme, on the contrary, it makes the actual romance route much more meaningful since love is not the default state anymore. The same is also true for darker eroge.
That said and to emphasize what I mean, I propose a new tag that has context but does not have a spoilerous implication:
>>"Protagonist (not) willing to share his women" (find a more catchy name)
This tag would cover every vn the people who don't want to see their waifus having sex with other men want to find while not spoiling what will actually happen. Since the protagonist is the driving force behind a story, we can safely assume that games with this tag will have the "theme" of "(not) sharing the girl" (my first example is included/excluded) while it does not spoil anything that actually happens (my second example) thus keeping it for the player interesting and exciting.
If someone does really really really really really not want to play anything with an optional bad ending, there are always minor-spoiler tags like "bad endings with story" that imply scenes that are elaborate and might not contain something you want to see in order to "warn" you.
However, people who want a game with this specific "theme" of "not sharing" will be able to find it without spoiling the story for themselves by knowing exactly what kind of scenes will (not) be included.
Lastly, I want to say to people who unironically think that "its most likely someone would be happy to be alerted of NTR content than mad that they got spoilered the surprise NTR": Please stop being such pussies, you are ruining it for everyone else.
And I don't mean that as an insult. Really, I just hope for you to finally grow up so you are able to enjoy a story without being triggered by every little detail. Even stories who are meant as escapism are not meant to "only" deliver scenes that make you feel comfy. Sometimes there is a little bit drama necessary to really make the "comfy" parts stand out. That is perfectly "normal" storytelling. It does not deserve a tag in order to "warn" people because no sane person would actually be triggered by that.
Do you think Harvest Moon turned into a NTR series at the point they introduced rivals for your love interests? Of course not! They exist to make your own romance stronger since you have a reason to really give it your all. Do you replay the game just to see the rivals getting your girl? I'd think not. And the same is true for eroge. You don't have to read a bad end if you don't want to and you know it will trigger you. And the existence of this ending does not turn the game into an NTR game either. It's simply there to make the good end of the game more meaningful for the player since there was the possibility of losing too.
We already have "bad ending" tags to point these instances out, do not make them into "subgenres" by introducing new tags for something that is essentially just a form of good/bad storytelling.
|#19 by eacil|
2017-11-09 at 05:27
|You basically described why those people suck, moeshit is flooding us, and unpasteurized cheeses are dying. Their culture is all about sterilization. Why would writers include difficult themes if readers are starting by looking at a chart of tags to see if it's morally compliant or in their egoistical comfort zone and bitterly joke about how _they should have read the tags_ when the bill of specifications betrayed them? Hurray to threads here which ask you why such spoilerish tag is linked to such VN without using spoiler tags, sometimes even in the freaking title! (They are never moderated.)|
They don't value new experiences and narratives, they don't want to broaden their horizon, they value custom-made. Soon, VN with check boxes, later gacha and loot boxes.
Now, about your proposition:
The purpose of this tag is to be a playpen for those who are irked at the idea of having their heroine spoiled. Your tag doesn't work for them because their request *requires* spoilers per se. Events can happen independently of the will of the protagonist in a non minor fashion (even if volition is about writer's intention, not protag's one).
Example: what if an heroine is under the yoke of an evil man who rape her (and she doesn't like it) before you can deliver her and reach a good slave ending together? Your tag applies but they don't want that. The contextualization is here, the scenes of rape can be written as very dramatic and not fappable and the nukige tagged as netori (the irony haha).
What about minor female characters who are raped in the sidelines while the main heroine is for protag only? Same.
They are people who wants a marked path warning them about every little jump scares (I feel I will use this example until I die) hence story direction is irrelevant when it's about fetish flagging.
Also, you underestimate the impact of bad endings. Even if it doesn't subvert a nukige, any stain on an heroine can ruin the feeling of possession you have over her and totally subvert the idea you had of this nukige until now. You can't just forget a route where your love behaved in a disgraceful fashion because choice tree can put you in some kind of quantum state where you embrace every possibility as related. In fact, a secluded bad ending can do way more damage than a nukige which include regular rape scenes. In the latter, you can put things into perspective and emotionally adapt.
This tag can only work as an objective "own them all" or you need to put a quota barrier, specify the scope of the women it applies on (every woman, main characters only?) and prevent subversion to your tag and say to those who wish it to gtfo. Spoiler alert: it won't be accepted.Last modified on 2017-11-09 at 05:29
|#20 by kratoscar2008|
2017-11-09 at 05:29
|You make a good argument, however, you are over analyzing all this. Not to mention that mindbreak is a mechanism of the mind to deal with the rape, which means that she is still being raped even when mindbroken so the tag still applies. Your tag sugestion doesnt works when most NTR scenes are against the MC will so his desire or not to share women is irrelevant. All this does however makes my case of "sex only with MC" tag stronger.|
And i dont really compare romantic elements in game mediums to those of eroge. Eroge usually dont ever feature several male characters that interact with the heroines as means to be your rivals, its usually kept with the main character as the only love interest for them. So you dont go with the same mentality regarding the romance. Not to mention VNs are mainly an escapism medium so all this talk of enhancing romance doesnt works if i dont like the methods used for it.
Sorry that it affects you but sadly you see the medium in a diferent light than me.
|#21 by rusanon|
2017-11-09 at 05:55
If it meaningless for you, it doesn't mean its meaningless for us. I for one want blanket-coverage tag for heroine being raped by non-PC regardless of context.
Although, now that I think about it, maybe we should have more generic "Protagonist-only sex" or "Sex with non-Protagonist", as we have only NTR right now, and some special snowflakes are triggered when this tag is misused for cases of heroine having non-PC sex outside romantic relationship with PC. This is actually popular case and proven to be important for many readers.
|#22 by sanahtlig|
2017-11-13 at 19:30
|What's important to people is whether heroines (i.e., characters that have a route or are a love interest for the protagonist) are depicted having sex with non-protagonists. That excludes the minor characters that are often raped in Studio Ego games, for example. I'd find a tag like this useful because I actively look for games that have NTR'ish elements (like defeat rape) but aren't necessarily focused on NTR.|
|#23 by bunny1ov3r|
2017-11-13 at 20:15
|yeah a more general tag could work for me just fine.|
|#24 by nutellafan|
2017-11-27 at 04:41
|Thanks for sharing your opinions, everyone.|
After reading your thoughts, I now think it the tag deserves reconsideration- but definitely with some modifications. I'm still conflicted about exactly how it should be included into the db.
As for the talk about spoilers... That's more of a problem with how people tag them. I'm not seeing how both sides could win- spoiler-tag it and then the people wanting this tag created in the first place will risk getting spoiled by other things, and choosing to not spoiler-tag it could spoil the story for others. Honest question- how many VNs could get spoilered by a "rape only by protagonist" kind of tag?
If people don't mind a less particular option (which are less likely to spoil), I think more generalised tags like @rusanon mentioned would be worth considering.
|#25 by rampaa|
2017-11-27 at 05:34
|I think @rusanon's suggestion has some merits though I see some demerits to it as well. Namely, a VN with more than one couple might be eligible/non-eligible (depending on which version of the suggested tag we are talking about. If it's "Protagonist-only sex", it being non-eligible would be the problem. If it's "Sex with non-Protagonist", the problem would be it being eligible) for that kind of general tag. Though this might be avoided depending on how the said tag is defined. And well, even if it cannot be avoided, I guess "more than one couple" thing is not common to begin with. So, yeah, a more general tag might work as well, I guess.Last modified on 2017-11-27 at 05:55|
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