Copy paste, or simply coicidence?

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#1 by hikigane
2010-11-30 at 20:39
Knowing Japan's tradition of "improving old creations", and disconsidering the difference in style...

Clannad Game: link
Miko Dashi Game: link

Opinions?
#2 by gabezhul
2010-11-30 at 20:46
Errr... What? I think you are just oversensitive. Those characters aren't half that similar. Yeah, purple hair and ribbon in a front lock of hair, but different eye-color and there's another ribbon there too. All in all, considering that the number of possible heroine-appearances is finite, it's more on the coincidence side...
#3 by blackiris
2010-11-30 at 22:45
It's as gabe has already said, I'm afraid. There's like dozens of girls with violet hair out there. It's a matter of numbers, being original these days is not quite as easy as it was - let's say - even 5 years ago.
All in all though, it's all the same shit after all: link
#4 by gabezhul
2010-11-30 at 23:14
Hahaha, that image is soooo true... But who are the girls? My guesses are, from top to bottom:
-Taiga from Toradora (Awesome series, by the way :P)
-Louise from Zero no Tsukaima (A little less awesome, but still entertaining series)
-Maybe... Shana from Shakugan no Shana? The red eyes/hair combo is not THAT common, so I would place my bets on her.
-I have no solid idea on who the fourth girl is... My best bet would be Nagi from Hayate no Gotoku, seeing that all the others were "tsunderes" as well (let's not talk about the misconceptions about tsunderes now, maybe another time... :P)
-About Suzumiya Haruhi, I have absolutely no idea who Suzumiya Haruhi is, so my best idea is that she might be something like a Suzumiya Haruhi just a little more Suzumiya Haruhi-ish than that, like, you know... a Suzumiya Haruhi... :P

P.S.: Geez... after re-reading what I wrote, I realized that I still remember a lot of stuff even though I hardly watched any anime in the past two years...*sigh* I was such a geek when I was young... -.-'
#5 by yimw
2010-12-01 at 00:00
I doubt it's a coincidence. The only difference is eye color and a ribbon. The air intake is really what seals it though.
#6 by kiseki-yamihana
2010-12-01 at 01:10
Ummm... Maybe the creators have run out of ideas... So, they "remake" the character design with some modification... Understand?
#7 by justinizhere
2010-12-01 at 06:40
Similar looking characters isn't something that's unseen, honestly with it being as many visual novels out as it is then i wouldn't be surprised if the same looking character shows up a few times, its only so many ways to make a character look after all...
#8 by irx
2010-12-01 at 08:29
The only thing similar about them is the hair style.

p.s. ;)Last modified on 2010-12-03 at 14:34
#9 by justinizhere
2010-12-01 at 09:16
The thing similar about them is the hair style.

no way! really?
#10 by gabezhul
2010-12-01 at 10:37
Well, let's put on the brainy specs and look at this question from an analytical viewpoint. So, what makes an anime-style heroine recognizable? Their faces are virtually identical, save for the difference in eye-shape and other small things, but those are more related to the personal style of the artist. There are things like height and chest-size, but we don't care about that either, as our main focus is the face. So, what are the differentiating actors of the head?

-Hair color
-Hair style
-Eye color
-Accessories (from ribbons to tattoos and eye-patches)
-Racial quirks (vampire fangs, kemomimi ears and such, skin color counts here as well)

There are a few special cases, like the girls in Katawa Shoujo (actually this is one of the reasons I found the premise of this game pure genius...), but 99% of the time only these traits decide on a heroine's appearance. As Blackiris' link has shown, just by changing the hair color one can create different heroines.
You would stop me here and say: "Wait Gabe, you extremely handsome yet totally not mad scientist! Are you stupid? You just showed us how many variables there are. Artist could create countless different heroines from that!"

Well, it's almost true. You see, I did a little math on this, and here's the results: There are roughly 645800 variations, counting with approximately 40 different hairstyles and every possible color-pairing of heterocromia. Now, let's remove the really similar ones from the equation, and we have about 46950 different "pure" archetypes. It's still a huge number, but then think about this: there are 5551 visual novels in this database as of now each with an average of three heroines. Add the 6276 anime entries from AniDB with similar statistics and, you get a whooping 35481 existing heroines plus/minus a few thousand because of estimations and rounding errors. An that equation doesn't even count the literally uncountable amount of manga characters. With them, this heroine-count could easily reach a hundred thousand!

The whole point of this little rambling? All the heroine appearances are already taken. Still, as you can see from the numbers, there are a great number of "slightly similar" heroines, like the two in the question, that can be created. However, creating something completely new and original using only these heroine traits is nigh impossible by now. Deal with it.
#11 by hikigane
2010-12-01 at 12:19
Deal with it.
It's not like we are complaining. Its just a discussion about similarity. Please don't take this as an stupid discussion like:
"They riped Kyou! You bastards!" Sankaku kind of thing... The objective of this thread is none other then start an topic about the tendency of japanese people plagiarising (or not) their own works.

And you see, aside from the extra ribbon, the hair is the exact same as Kyou. Even the top part of tyhe hair, that has those weird 2 triangles.

As for the combinational thinggy, its not really around 645800 different variations.
The shapes of the face, different style, different variations of hairstyle that are most certainly over 40 types only... Those factors all considered would most deffinitly round up into an gigantic number which i'm seriously not willing to calculate.

Just an example to make my argument a bit more understandable: Saki has blonde twintails, yet Nagi who also has twin ponytails looks completely different.
Another example would be: If heroine appearences were restricted to that number of yours, then recreating a character on those 3D eroges like Artificial Girl3 or Custom Girl 3D n' stuff would be retardadly easy, while it's not.
And if you consider the options of custumization which grant you about a fuck thousend different custumizations options (from body style to heterochromia), it would go way beyon your 645800 variations.

P.S.: I might have sounded a bit aggressive in this post. That was not intentional. If you felt offended then fuck you.Last modified on 2010-12-01 at 15:06
#12 by gabezhul
2010-12-01 at 12:45
Hahhh... You didn't listen...
First of all, we are talking about minor differences here. You say Nagi and Saki are not that similar. Geez, you are right, since one of them is a loli and they are drawn in different style... Wait, what was I writing in my second post... Oh yes, that we don't care about the stuff like height and build as we are concentrating on the head here, and that the shape of face is not an indicator as it's mainly the part of an artist's style instead of a specific part of heroine appearance. Please read more carefully...

That aside, the numbers I used were only indications. It's highly debatable on the grounds you covered, but there can be no accurate numbers on the first place as the whole thing is subjective. You say Kyou and that other heroine looks similar. I say they don't look any more similar than Kyou and about a hundred other heroines/secondary charcters/extras/etc. You also have to take into account that some trait-combinations are nigh nonexistent, like dark skin-heterocromatic-kemomimi-vampire, and my equation included even these! On the other hand, there are a lot of traits that are used and reused frequently, as they are more appealing, like, yes, the "air-intakes". In fact the only suspiciously similar part about the two aforementioned heroines is the front ribbon, everything else are common traits!

Finally, there is one last thing I would like to address. You said that this thread is about whether or not Japanese artists are "plagiarizing" other's designs... It's a terrible choice of words. Have you ever heard of Van Gogh's descendant suing a painter for making a still of some sunflowers? Plagiarizing is when you take someone else's intellectual work and present it as your own. Unless that other heroine not just SLIGHTLY looks like Kyou, but acts like her as well, this does not stand. Please reconsider that phrasing.
#13 by hikigane
2010-12-01 at 13:13
I wasn't specific enough to say this was more of a stepping point to get to a more serious thread about plagiarising. Thats my bad. (I was going to use simmosing as the main term, but seeing as the objective was to discuss plagiarism...)

we don't care about the stuff like height and build as we are concentrating on the head here, and that the shape of face is not an indicator as it's mainly the part of an artist's style instead of a specific part of heroine appearance.
Very well then.
-Hair color Nagi = Saki CHECK
-Hair style Nagi = Saki CHECK
-Eye color I don't remember
-Accessories (NONE) Nagi = Saki CHECK
-Racial quirks (NONE) Nagi = Saki CHECK

I fail to see why my example isn't valid in your opinion.

Please read more carefully...
I read it. Very carefully. Tho it still doesn't make any sense to me.

You say Nagi and Saki are not that similar.
Geez, you are right, since one of them is a loli and they are drawn in different style...
Those are not the reasons i said they are different. You are saying that yourself.
Oh yes, that we don't care about the stuff like height and build as we are concentrating on the head here
You are dismissing your own argument here, yet you didn't state your opinion on whenever they are similar or not when
we don't care about the stuff like height and build as we are concentrating on the head here
Your point?

I say they don't look any more similar than Kyou and about a hundred other heroines/secondary charcters/extras/etc.
You make it sound like there are hundrends of them. Wait... You just said that.
What other character looks like Kyou?

Plagiarizing is when you take someone else's intellectual work and present it as your own. Unless that other heroine not just SLIGHTLY looks like Kyou, but acts like her as well, this does not stand. Please reconsider that phrasing.
=\
Hahhh... You didn't listen...
Like i said, i started the topic with a similarity case, which could possibly be a plagiarsm case, as we can suspect that the heroine from Miko Dashi might be a tsundere.
However in no moment i actually accused it of plagiarism.Last modified on 2010-12-01 at 13:39
#14 by gabezhul
2010-12-01 at 13:37
I'm going to address the Nagi/Saki issue first, though it's quite pointless.
First: Saki has huge ribbons in her hair so the accessory part does not "CHECK" at all.
Second: The hair style marginally correlates, as Nagi's twin-tails are a lot shorter, which is a really jarring difference. Under that logic, I could cite all heroines as lookalikes as they have HAIR on their heads...
Third: By reciting those similarities, you kinda contradicted your own argument about them not being that similar... :P

About the Kyou-lookalikes: Are you seriously expecting me to spend hours to look up the characters I have in mind? Sorry, but I have better things to do, you just have to take my word for it. :P

About the heroine of Miko Dash... Where the hell does that "we can suspect her to be a tsundere" come from? O_o? Yeah, and we can suspect her to be an alien, a goat and Cthulhu as well as her being a killer as she had hands being able to kill someone, but that means nothing unless someone who played the game says it. Sorry, but your argument is fatally flawed...

start an topic about the tendency of japanese people plagiarising (or not) their own works.
Yeah, you never accused it per se, you accused the whole Japanese artist community... real smooth man, real smooth...

But to be a little relevant, my answer to your "plagiarism" question. No. They don't. Unless they are EXACTLY the same, you cannot call plagiarism.

@Justin-kun down below: What do you mean? This is a discussion, meaning we are discussing things. It would actually help if you contributed some more instead of that meaningless one liner....
#15 by justinizhere
2010-12-01 at 13:37
wow the topic went from a simple discussion to this D:
#16 by hikigane
2010-12-01 at 13:48
Okay I invalidated my argument by not checking the characters throughfully thanks to laziness.
I did a mistake so won't go back there, even tho i do have more arguments about that.

About the Kyou-lookalikes: Are you seriously expecting me to spend hours to look up the characters I have in mind? Sorry, but I have better things to do, you just have to take my word for it. :P
I never intended to ask you to actually list me similar characters to Kyou. It was a rethorical question. Tho i doubt you would find any character like that anyway.

About the heroine of Miko Dash... Where the hell does that "we can suspect her to be a tsundere" come from? O_o? Yeah, and we can suspect her to be an alien, a goat and Cthulhu as well as her being a killer as she had hands being able to kill someone, but that means nothing unless someone who played the game says it. Sorry, but your argument is fatally flawed...
Yeah the Tsundere tag is totally ignorable.

Yeah, you never accused it per se, you accused the whole Japanese artist community... real smooth man, real smooth...
Just when did I said that?
#17 by saberger
2010-12-01 at 14:04
wow the topic went from a simple discussion to this D:
don't worry.They are just two twin brothers seperated from each others for along time, then suddenly, they meet their precious halves again when they vist a red-light brothel on a specific stormy night.Actually, i think they have quite the same wave length but with different frequency.
About my opinion in this matter, (no body ask me to state it but i will any way), i both agree and disagree with both ahaz and gabe.
Gabe and others were right, the characters surely didn't resemble each other, though they might emit the same air or atmosphere but the feelings when i look at them is different.On the other hand, i agree with ahaz that not all type of heroines have been covered in all VN yet, and i doubt it will be in the future. Gabe, your calculation seemed off. Three, maybe ten of them may have the same features but there are some areas that the artitst surely haven't illustrated yet.
And what we see right now is just picture with high colour property( if you are interested in it, i will write more but i drop all the boring theories stuff for now), i feel that in the future, they will upgrade the art to true colour defination, which will compile more and more different styles, and make them feel distinguished with each other.It maybe the same Taiga, but we may see her as a different individual without realizing it.
Well,that's all. If i wrong, or was fallen in understanding your posts, please do correct meLast modified on 2010-12-01 at 14:05
#18 by gabezhul
2010-12-01 at 14:06
@ahaz: Indeed. I guess the continually angry twintail heroine must be the osanajimi and the gentle-looking, purple haired girl must be the modern tsundere. Yeah, makes complete sense now...

And when did you say that? Do I have to quote it again?
japanese people plagiarising (or not) their own works
If you can interpret it any other way, please tell me.

@saberger: As I said, my numbers were only an indication. Both of you say that it's wrong, but I would like to see you make a formula for counting the heroine archetypes. That said, without any mathematical basis, I would say that there are less than a hundred really different heroine faces. Of course, putting them on different bodies and accessories and stuff elevates these numbers into the sky, but if you are looking for REALLY different heroines, the number is nowhere near the hundred thousands I have written.

P.S.: I just noticed, but the links lead to the wrong girls... I'll fix it, but I thought I tell you. :P
#19 by hikigane
2010-12-01 at 14:15
@gabe
Just because we have one tsundere, it doesn't mean the other character can't be one.
Or do you want to have duplicated tags each time we have two or more heroines with the same traits in a game?

And when did you say that? Do I have to quote it again?
japanese people plagiarising (or not) their own works
If you can interpret it any other way, please tell me.
I never said that was my opinion.
The objective of this thread is none other then start an topic about the tendency of japanese people plagiarising (or not) their own works.

p.s..:
P.S.: I just noticed, but the links lead to the wrong girls... I'll fix it, but I thought I tell you. :P
I knew about that, but i didn't edit because it would appear that "Last modified on ...." flag under my post, making it look like i edited my post to change my arguments countering yours. =\

But thanks for editing it tho.Last modified on 2010-12-01 at 14:17
#20 by saberger
2010-12-01 at 14:20
Gabe, i will make my calculation, and again, if i was wrong, don't be mad
Let's assume we have roughly 40 different hair styles as you suggest ( as i don't know anuthing about its number). We also know that the colour represented as ABC.DEF.GHI with A,B,C,.. as positive number from 0->9. Each letter so represents 10 numbers, hence, the total of combinations are 10^9, which is approximately 1000000000, that is just the diffrent hair colours, wich is totally bigger than what you calculated. I don't knwo whether i right or not, but that's why i said your calculating seemed offLast modified on 2010-12-01 at 14:24
#21 by gabezhul
2010-12-01 at 14:24
@ahaz:
You are welcome. :P

On the topic of plagiarizing, if you say that you meant it another way, then fine, I believe you. But please drop the word "plagiarizing", as it's really not fitting this case we are discussing.

An the tsundere stuff is ENTIRELY pointless. We should ask eyeless or *shiver* adhinferno about it, as they have played this game.

@saberger: Just how much can you miss the point?! When was that you looked at a heroine and said: "Hmmm... She looks just like XYZ except that her hair color is more bluish by 0.003 percent, so it's okay."...?

Normally, one looks at a heroine and say she is blond or green-haired or such, and doesn't care about the small difference in shades. I see your point, but as I said, it COMPLETELY misses the point...

Oh, and don't start a new discussion under my name just to notify me, I would have noticed your edit anyway... -.-'
#22 by saberger
2010-12-01 at 14:38
No, that's what i want to say either. I meant that if we have that many different hair colours, combine with different hair styles, different facial structure, different eyeslash and nose and ears and the most importantly, different ways of drawing their characters of the artists, the same heroine can be seen as someone new, some strange individual in our eyes even though they have the same features with just a small percent of difference in colour
And if you said that my calculator seemed they only different in a small amount, let's divide it into 4, or even 32, it will even bigger than what you suggested
I agree that some of them may recycle the characters but they can just not cover them all. I hardly encountered two similar characters in my past 4 years watching anime(blackiris's link is sufficent but i think that they are only a minority, they can not represent the whole enormous amount of VN and cartoon either.Eventhough, as the world of anime is big, and just the small numbers of them could be translated, hence, my counter-arguement may seemed off but i strongly believe that it isn't the case)
And moreover, when we cut down to the total number that you suggested, there aren't that many animes or VNs at the first place.
PS:sorry about that thread, i just being switched by this discussion, it is quite enjoyableLast modified on 2010-12-01 at 14:39
#23 by hikigane
2010-12-01 at 14:40
I was not saying it was plagiarism, i was just using the similarity as a stepping point... whatever. I don't even care anymore.

We should ask eyeless or *shiver* adhinferno about it, as they have played this game.
Gla-DOS is a safer option.
(GlaDOS playing vns... Thats something i'd pay to see.)
#24 by gabezhul
2010-12-01 at 14:47
@saberger: ........ are you even trying to listen? Have you even seen an artist draw a heroine's face differently from any of his/her other heroines? Facial structure, including shape, nose, eyes, eyelashes and everything else is not a character specialty, but a peculiarity of the artist's style. You just cannot count them as a characteristic of a heroine. Hair and accessories on the other hand are almost exclusive to certain heroines in a given story. You won't meet two heroines having the same hairstyle and color in the same story ever, unless they are sisters and it's part of the plot.

And the shades... Oh my god, where to begin...? Do you seriously believe what you say? That a heroine can be different just by changing the RGB-ratio of their hair a little? I'm no artist, so I'm only speaking from the viewpoint of the simple consumer, but I don't give a shit about the shades. If a heroine has green hair, she has green hair. It can be light-green or dark-green at max, but I'm not going into RGB values when I'm describing a heroine...

@ahazkun: Don't run away. Aside of the plagiarism-term, your question about similarities is actually valid. It's just that with only the two of us, it wasn't a really working discussion...
#25 by saberger
2010-12-01 at 14:55
You won't meet two heroines looking the same in the same story ever, unless they are sisters and it's part of the plot.
I didn't mean in the same story, i mean in the whole universe of Animes or VNs
But as bitter as it may sound, i must say that i admit that i was wrong and you got the point. After i thinl hard about it, It seemed that my arguments was kind of stupid and quite ambiguous.
******wave white flag*********Last modified on 2010-12-01 at 14:55

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