#1 by cheekyman07
2023-03-22 at 21:45 | < report >''I only played the hero route''
I also stopped reading once I saw that. |
#2 by anonymous
2023-03-23 at 09:49 | < report >My God.
Character development, as you present it in point 1, is not an accurate (or real) notion.
The MC actions present in point 2 are not within context. It's pure fantasy.
Point 3... Must be some sort of enhanced bait. I'm not taking that one.
Good news, I agree with the anti-pacifist rhetoric on point 4. Not the wording though.
Overall, it's like you read something entirely different and purposefully miss the point. This is either a somewhat amusing taunt, or simply the product of someone literal minded. The second is too sad to consider, let's say that you baited me into commenting. Good job.
I will thank you, however. I was entertained reading this.Last modified on 2023-03-23 at 09:50 |
#3 by htc89234
2023-03-23 at 10:45 | < report >This review feels as if reading this VN you were just looking at the words on the screen instead of trying to interpret it. Point 1 and 2 particularly; I understand if you think the philosophy is stupid (as you said "I can understand there are idiots that think like this"), but I cannot even begin to fathom how you think this contradicts the MC for point 2; and for point 1, I can't see how your takeaway from the tailend of the route is that he's fine with doing that.
Your comment on the true ending being a "180" when you only saw it on a youtube video instead of... well, reading it, is just the cherry on top. "I haven't read it, but I saw the culmination of 40 hours of something I didn't read in a 30 minute youtube video and I didn't like it." I mean, at least your dislike and points over the hero route - while something I disagree with heavily and find to be very disconnected from my interpretation of the story - is something I can accept, since you've read it yourself. Commenting on something you haven't even read is... quite out there.Last modified on 2023-03-23 at 14:16 |
#4 by animenotreal
2023-03-23 at 13:33 | < report >@cheekyman07
Playing a whole route of the game is not enough? Great logic fanboy.
@Soladir
Not sure I get what you mean. The MC was shown in chapters 1-5 being very emotional at the fact that he has to kill innocent people, but he ventured on knowing that he has to kill Hikaru for the greater good. It reminds of the utilitarian position of Kiritsugu in Fate Zero. However, in chapter 6 he completely does a 180 and suddenly becomes ok with killing innocent people even when he has the ability to achieve his goal without doing so. Do you not agree with that?
@htc89234
See what I wrote above. You fail to provide any evidence to the contrary as well, making your argument ineffective. As for the true ending, unless they changed the entire backstory of the MC and his behavior in the first 5 chapters dramatically in the True route, my argument still stands. His behavior in the last chapter is completely incompatible with his behavior in the rest of the story. While characters certainly can change their worldview as the story progress, there is nothing in the first 5 chapters to suggest this. This change happens very suddenly in the last chapter, which is a sign of poor writing. |
#5 by htc89234
2023-03-23 at 14:03 | < report >Any providing of evidence to the contrary would require a bit of spoiling as well as writing a fairly lengthy explanation of the hero route / revisiting Minato as a character (particularly chapter 5), which I don't think would be of proper length in a comment section. Either way, disliking the Hero route is fine; again, I disagree and think the points are weird, but to each their own opinion; I'm not commenting to change your mind or anything.
For the other part, the true route is the lengthiest in the game and you comparing it with the first five introductory chapters is ignoring several other hours of storytelling that, again, you have not read. There is no argument to be had simply because you haven't seen nor read it. You took the start of something you've read, the ending of something you've watched/skimmed, and trying to judge it while ignoring the entire middle section. Judging the True Route off maybe ~25% you've read and 3% you've watched is something I simply don't think is an honest review. You say it yourself : there is nothing in the first 5 chapters to suggest this... and then there's the entirety of the true route that you haven't read, before the ending that you saw. Anything you have to say over the true ending isn't fair, because you simply haven't read it. My sole issue with your review is you talking about things that you have not read, not how you feel or think about it. Sure, maybe you wouldn't like nor agree with the development of the true route and maybe even find it worse than the Hero route and lower your score further, and still hate the True Ending - that's absolutely fine. I find issue with the fact you're judging and putting it in your review when you haven't read it.Last modified on 2023-03-23 at 14:16 |
#6 by animenotreal
2023-03-23 at 14:21 | < report >@htc89234
You can always use the spoiler tag. I don't really care since I won't be returning to the series.
Your claim rests on the notion that the True route somehow justifies that personality change of the MC. You are right that I cannot completely disprove that point, but you have not proven it either. However, my evidence of the first 5 chapters is evidence against your claim, while you have provided no evidence to support yours. If you can, provide some events from the True route that led the MC to change his worldview. Otherwise, your argument is invalid. |
#7 by htc89234
2023-03-23 at 14:30 | < report >#6
You are right. I have provided nothing to the contrary that says "The True Route validates the ending because of X". There's two reasons why I haven't, and won't: First, I could basically say whatever I want to you and you couldn't contest it as truthful or not, since like you said, you could not disprove or verify it other than by reading it or looking it up. Two, even if I say "X thing happened and this made the MC develop in this direction", that's my interpretation of the story, and these things can vary wildly - as we can see, we both have very different interpretations of what the story meant in the Hero route. Any argument I have against this would present the story under my lens as a reader, and I don't think would result in anything. And I'm not really here to try to justify the True Route ending to you - again, maybe you read it (edit: or a summary of it, or arguments around it for the true end, or whatever), and you end up thinking it sucks (which reading your review is something I think is definitely very very possible), and that's fine, because it'd be your evaluation of it, and not your evaluation of something you think does or does not happen.Last modified on 2023-03-23 at 14:32 |
#8 by animenotreal
2023-03-23 at 14:42 | < report >@htc89234
Your first point doesn't make sense since I can look up whether what you said happened or not. You even admit that yourself, so I am not sure why you bothered writing it in the first place.
I agree that we have different interpretations of the story. However, one of us has to right and the other has to be wrong. I believe that all literature has objective meaning and the point of having a discussion is to uncover this fact. If you don't agree with my interpretation of the Hero route, provide some evidence. You can pick any scene you want and try to argue in your favor. Maybe I was wrong in my interpretation and you can prove me wrong. However, if you claim what each of us has our own subjective interpretation and there is nothing to be done about that, then why even comment? Shouldn't you have just left me with my own subjective interpretation of the VN? |
#9 by htc89234
2023-03-23 at 14:56 | < report >I simply disagree on evaluating something you haven't read, which is the main point I've been making the whole time - If you comment on something without having read it, then I disagree with it, because I think it's not valid as criticism. That's it, no more no less. Whether you read it because of someone making a summary or an argument, whether your opinion of it changes or not is neither important nor the point in my mind, but rather that your take on it comes from... well, having read it. Your own subjective interpretation of the VN is definitely fine with me - Like I said for everything you've wrote about the hero route - so long as it is an interpretation of what is actually written.
Even if we argue or you read it, even if your opinion or score does or does not change, we would be altering or justifying your review by reading the story afterwards - this, to me, does not sound as what a review should be, inherently.Last modified on 2023-03-23 at 15:03 |
#10 by anonymous
2023-03-24 at 12:15 | < report >#4 It's hard to reply to this, but I will try my best, point by point.
It's not about innocent people. It's about people the protagonist cares about. Misconception. The protagonist would kill innocent people to save a greater number, this is demonstrated.
It's not about killing Hikaru. It's his inability to deal with his own failure and conciliating that, with the only way he sees possible, to stop Hikaru - Sense of duty born from crippling regret. In F/S N these are not present. It's the standard 1 life vs a million.
There's no 180. The protagonist is the same for a long time. It's the mechanic that drives him to the killings and acceptance of what needs to be done. Those are the factors. Not character development. He is coming to terms with things. It's here that the whole pacifism approach, later showed collides. You could argue that.
This is one of those situations where I can never tell you: You are wrong. That's the beauty of Muramasa. However my view differs too much form yours. I don't think we can agree on many points. Maybe you can give Muramasa another chance, at some point.Last modified on 2023-03-24 at 12:17 |