|#1 by nirvaren|
2023-11-19 at 21:49
|< report >I agree, but it's always funny to read Muv Luv reviews. You either get this opinion, or people who think extra is 10/10 and unlimited and further are garbage.|
|#2 by rws4life|
2023-11-20 at 08:15
|< report >Gotta disagree with the "very generic" statement. The writing is decent and the reviewer might not understand the more intricate aspects of the story.|
I think the 2/10 is less based on the game's quality and more on the fact that the reviewer doesn't enjoy the genre (which is fine)Last modified on 2023-11-20 at 08:16
|#3 by cheekyman07|
2023-11-20 at 12:01
|< report >#2|
It is very generic though, it's made to be that way purposely to setup for a genre shift. I liked Extra myself, it made me laugh, and it was a fun read overall for me. But it was not really anything unique.
''I think the 2/10 is less based on the game's quality and more on the fact that the reviewer doesn't enjoy the genre (which is fine)''
They never stated that they don't enjoy that genre, and im not sure why you said 'fact' while making such an assumption. I disagree with the assumption that rating something poorly = they don't like a genre.
If you want to disagree, come up with something better than that. Tell them why you think the game is better than they think for x and y reasons.
|#4 by rws4life|
2023-11-26 at 22:44
|< report >#3|
Firstly, I'm not trying to be antagonistic towards you or anything (although I do get a bit snarky around the time I quote you, so I do apologize for that), but I'll go a bit into why a 2/10 makes no sense to me when it comes to Extra.
Giving it a two out of ten is quite unfair towards what equals a perfectly average experience from my perspective. The arcs were fine. Each heroine was explored, we got interesting enough arcs that partially dealt with surprisingly heavy themes at points. The writing was ok for what it set out to do. Unless the reviewer has a scoring system of -10 to 10, where 0 would mean "average", then a 2/10 is too low. A 2/10 means very bad, not "very generic and bland". I could understand a 4/10, since some may consider it a little below average.
But if you want generic stuff, there are many slice of life VNs out there that fit that. Maybe Majikoi, to give an example. Perfectly average experience, which I have personally enjoyed a lot, but it was nothing special. It is safe to assume that someone who wouldn't enjoy Majikoi as an experience would rate it a little lower, while someone, such as I, who enjoyed such an experience, would rate it a little higher.
> and im not sure why you said 'fact' while making such an assumption
If you're not sure, then you better not make any incorrect assumptions in the next sentence.
>I disagree with the assumption that rating something poorly = they don't like a genre.
I never stated that rating something poorly = someone doesn't like a genre, so we agree on that. There are valid VNs that warrant a two out of ten. This ain' it, chief. Want a solid 2/10 example? Shiyouchuu ~W.C.~ - that's a solid 2/10 experience. I know a lot of /weg/s that warrant a 2/10. So, to reiterate, I never said that rating something poorly necessarily equates to not liking a genre. I disagreed with the reviewer and just gave a quick mention on my conclusions in my comment. You disagreed, saying you're unsure why I'd make an assumption, and then went on to make an assumption yourself (which was incorrect if it was an assumption as to what I would potentially be thinking)
I digress. I'm not here to talk about what you assume about my assumptions, which could potentially be misguided for both of us. Let us concentrate a little on the review.
If someone takes an average thing and says it's dog shit, even though it's average, then why would they say it's dog shit unless it really was not their cup of tea (or piss, if you checked out Shiyouchuu ~W.C.~)? Let someone who hates horror movies rate a horror movie and see what rating they'd give. Give them a 10/10 horror movie and you'd receive an "eh, it's aight" at best - give them a 5/10 and we'd most likely get a very negative opinion on an average horror movie. That's what happens when people take an average thing of something they're not inherently interested in, from what I have experienced in life. They respond negatively. Still, the reviewer stating that it's "very generic and bland" does not warrant a 2/10 either way in my opinion. I generally use multiple factors when rating something. For an anime, it's "Story, Characters, Animation, Sound and Enjoyment" - the last aspect is what my feelings are on an anime. If I personally dislike an anime, even though it is an average product, I might give it a 2/10 on the enjoyment aspect and then get the average of all values (rounded down). That way, it's pretty obvious that a rating I give is tained by subjectivity, but I try to give a relatively "objective" score on the other aspects based on all the previous anime I have seen. I take a lot of factors into account, including release date to contextualize its production, to make sure I give it a relatively fair score - although it would be extremely stupid to claim it is a truly objective score, since it's not, so I'll future-proof myself and hope no one will put any claims towards objectivity into my mouth. As such, if we had a 5/10 anime, I'd decrease it to a 4/10, since my own opinion/feeling/enjoyment does have a small influence on any score I give. But if the quality of the anime itself was average, it would not be fair, in my opinion, to give the anime a very subpar score just based on my feelings, even though the product is completely average in all aspects. Same goes the other way around. I've had extremely average anime hit a note for me, giving it a high enjoyment score as a result. At most, if it's a 10/10 on enjoyment for me personally, that score might overall be a 6/10 on the dot, but it usually just remains at the 5/10 once rounded down. This helps me recommend anime based on how I perceive the quality from a broad pool of experience, regardless of how much I liked or disliked it. I've seen genuinely good anime that I personally didn't enjoy at all - but I would not let that deter me from recommending the anime to others based on its quality.
You might argue that "very generic" means "below average" for some reason. That's fine. Let's say an anime is a 4/10 in all aspects except for enjoyment, which is a 2/10. Then we still get a 3/10 overall if we floor the averages. I'd commend anyone who would still push through something that only gives 2/10 enjoyment, I guess. Usually, I drop something that gets to a 2/10. "The Hidden Dungeon only I can enter" is quite below average - i mean, it's fine and I've seen worse, but I didn't enjoy it enough and dropped it right near the end once a new arc started. Naturally, if I don't finish something, I usually just don't score it, since, to me, it's not fair to score something based on an incomplete experience. Anyway, let's get back to the Muv Luv Extra review.
All we can work with is a 2/10 from the reviewer and a comment that it is a "very generic and bland moege that's bereft of good writing". So, everything is a 5/10, except for the writing, which is a, let's say, 3/10, since it's only "bereft of good writing" and not "atrocious to the point where they'd rather watch someone receive an enema". I'd argue the case for a 4/10 on the writing at worst, since they didn't specifically call it "bad writing", but I digress. So, we shall have story, characters, art, sound, writing and enjoyment, for the sake of an analysis. 5,5,5,5,3,x. x denotes their enjoyment. If we were to give enjoyment a 0, then average it by dividing by 6, we'd get a 3.8/10, which gets floored to a 3/10.
But let's say for the sake of a potential argument that "very generic" means "below average" - we'll say 4,4,4,4,3,x. We still get a 3.1/10 if we insert a 0 in the enjoyment factor.
If we'd go out and say "the game is bad", giving it scores lower than 4s in every aspect mentioned above, then we could finally get to the 2/10. Now we can try and analyze if the "game is bad", which means we'd have to decide on a pool of VNs to compare it to. That can be left to you as an assignment. To me, Muv Luv Extra was a perfectly average experience that I enjoyed a lot. Some aspects were above average in my personal, private analysis, since I've seen and read way worse, so maybe this skews my scores a little as well. I'd like to see anyone argue that an average experience, or maybe below average to make it easier, equates to a 2/10, which is usually reserved for things that are, to put it bluntly, very bad. I could go into a detailed analysis on the VN's quality itself, so that we can decide on whether Extra is "average" or not. I'll leave that up to anyone asking for it. (Although, please don't)
So, from my point of view, the only way for someone to rate an average experience as a very bad experience is if they don't enjoy that type of experience. Or they just don't have enough VNs under their belt to accurately gauge what a bad experience really is. There comes a time when someone stumbles upon something they want to rate an 11/10 since it's the best thing they'd ever experienced - but since that's impossible, it makes sense to drag everything down a notch and crown the new king. Same goes for the other way around as well. There comes a time when someone might feel the need to rate something worse than a 1/10 since it's the worst thing they'd ever seen, but since that's impossible, they're gonna up the scores of everything else and crown the new king of worst experiences. As more and more experiences come in, an average forms. If this game is generic and bland and it warrants a score of a very bad VN, then someone either lacks experience or someone doesn't enjoy that type of VN at all, from what I can tell.Last modified on 2023-11-26 at 22:45
|#5 by cheekyman07|
2023-11-27 at 00:50
|< report >#4|
On snarky/antagonism - That's is completely fine dont worry no offense taken, on the contrary im pleased to see this reply. Was not expecting such a huge reply.
PS : Also just throwing this out, not trying to offend either with all of the below rambling im about to do.
On ratings - 2/10 not making sense - I agree, I don't think it deserves that rating either. Personally I rated the game a 6. Personally the lowest I have ever rated something is 4.
On rating averages - The issue with talking about the ideology of scoring something is theres no real universal standard that everyone will agree on. You could be objective about it and base it on number averages and/or around the average of the vn itself, that's what I do personally.
There will be people who base it on how much they enjoyed the game regardless of objectivity using the full range of 1-10 and that's fine too. There will also be people who give a higher rating a lot more meaning, and those will tend to rate lower on average, still being objective but a lot more strict on what they consider good. None of those are wrong ways to do it, it's all down to personal preference.
So for me personally I don't particularly focus on what somebody scored a title but rather what they said about the game.
On Majikoi eg -
I don't think Majikoi is a good example of a generic title, it's considered to have very good comedy with a wide range of characters by feedback given. So it has aspects of to it that stand out compared to what I would consider generic titles.
On the statement -
Well, if you want to go word for word, then no you did not say exactly what I typed. That would look rather silly, what I typed was my interpretation of your opinion. So if that's not what you think I will try it a different way.
So if we want to go word for word then.
''I think the 2/10 is less based on the game's quality and more on the fact that the reviewer doesn't enjoy the genre (which is fine)''
So if im reading this right.
- You think the user does not enjoy the genre.
- You think the reason they rated the game at such a low score is because You think the user does not enjoy the genre.
Do you see how the second point looks a bit strange now? You are using a 'You think' as a reason for something else that 'You think'. That is an assumption, because you don't 'Know' the second point and the first point does not prove that you 'Know' the second point.
Now the cruel term for what you did there is gaslighting (not using 'because I think' but instead using 'the fact') but im not accusing you of that. Since I don't think you were trying to malicious. Anyway that's what I don't agree with here, simply the way that you used those two points together.
On why they say it's dog shit unless etc etc -
Well the answer to this one is simple, they simply did not enjoy the game as much as the average playerbase did, or they rate differently as stated above, or a combination of both. That does not mean with certainty that they don't enjoy the genre of that game, there's more to a game than just its genre.
Perhaps they have higher or lower personal expectations of a game than the average person would, or maybe one character really pissed them off, or maybe the music was annoying, or they did not find the jokes funny, or they didnt enjoy the plot and so on and so forth. It could be any number of things. So to pin it down to one thing without them stating it didnt make sense to me. It makes more sense to me to look at what they did put down and then challenge them on it.
On talking about subjectivity and objectivity -
Now this subject is a recipee for going in circles. I will just be blunt and clear on my opinion about this. Subjectivity and objectivity are both correct, and should not be compared to eachother in an argument or as an argument in this particular situation. I believe a reviewer can be as subjective or objective as they want, or be both. Whatever the persons opinions turn out to be though, im free to disagree with them and tell them why I dont agree in ways to relate to what they said, regardless of how objective or subjective they were.
On how you rate your games -
That's perfectly fine, if that's the way you want to rate your games then that's great. I am pretty similar in that respect. The way I rate games is a combination of a lot of different factors and then how good I think it is, even if I hate it im going to give it a score I think it deserves.
My opinion when it comes to other people rating games is very indifferent. I don't believe people should do the same as I do, im all for them expressing their opinions in any way they want. I am more interested in what they said about the game. They can rate it whatever they like, don't get me wrong it used to bother me early on but it no longer does now. I end up being more interested in disagreeing with the reasons given and talking about the game itself with them if I feel like the opinions they made did not make sense to me, if I do reply.
On the very generic -
For me my interpretation of very generic applies to describing the game itself and not a score that was given. A game that uses premise, tropes, themes, jokes, music you name it that have been used many times before in similar ways without containing many unique factors to make it stand out. That's what very generic is to me, it's neither a positive or negative from my perspective. Like an example of something done many times - A school setting. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's a generic setting.
This was a good thing for Extra, because it gives the readers something they have seen many times before and makes them comfortable, only to surprise them later with a complete genre shift to something else to great effect. in the next game.
That said 'very generic' is a term that can be interpreted in different ways, so I get where you are coming from when it comes to interpreting that word as an insult to the game. Perhaps the reviewer meant it as an insult, but I personally don't.
On the what we can work with part -
I have to say im starting to get lost on where you are going with this, like it seems to me that you are solely theorizing on how they came up with the rating based on what the reviewer put down. The sticking point here seems to be the rating, and at this point you have already stated many times why you think the rating does not sense.
I highly doubt that the reviewer put this much theorycrafting when it came to his decision on rating the game, so ill be honest with you that all looks silly to me.
On the game is bad section -
This right here is EXCELLENT feedback, I agree and this is what I was asking for. Honestly, you could have left everything else out, but it was all pretty interesting to read, think about, and reply to.
From your point of view section -
My general impression from you after reading all of this is that you are basing a lot of this from your own ideals, and trying to apply them to the reviewer. But they are not you, they are somebody else.
I disagree with that point of view, to speak for somebody else who did not say such a thing is to gaslight.
We have no idea what genre this person dislikes or likes unless they tell us, the only basis you have is a score and a few words. It's a completely fruitless endeavour to do so much mental gymnastics to try to justify talking for somebody else.
I am completely fine with your disagreements in regards to the score, and in regards to the feedback you made about the game. In that one section, those are great. Ultimately though I stand by my opinion that you cannot know without a doubt if that person does not like a genre unless they have told us that, it's an assumption.
Because it's an assumption, it cannot be fact. It is not a fact that the user does not enjoy the genre. So the rating of 2/10 being given because the user does not enjoy the genre, is an assumption. There could be any number of other reasons they rated it that way, as evident by all of the theorycrafting made here.Last modified on 2023-11-27 at 05:06
|#6 by TLG12317|
2023-11-27 at 19:57
|< report >When I was writing the mini review I already hit the word limit, but here's the reason I rated the game 2/10 since y'all are asking|
Muv Luv Extra
Main story - 1/10
The entire premise is atrocious. Meiya suddenly appearing out of nowhere and sleeping beside you really hurt my brain, even if you completely disregard the one-off encounter where they suddenly promised to marry each other, even if you disregard the fact that she originates from a family which does not know common social norms.
You are also introduced to Sumika. The amount of physical abuse they hurl at each other is very annoying and a sign of how dated the VN is. More details in the character analysis section.
The slice of life in the VN have never failed to make me cringe. Simply putting the BOOM sound effect and placing a black and white screen is the comedy flick equivalent of placing a laugh track at every single unfunny joke. Character dynamics are decent, but have been executed better elsewhere.
Lacrosse arc was superfluous and painful to sit through. The worst part of the VN.
Cooking competition was superfluous and painful to sit through
Dates with each of the individual characters is kinda cute, character dynamics can be seen.
The only good part of the gang going to the hot springs was the dialogue between Sumika and Meiya, everything else was superfluous, not as painful to sit through
Therefore the main story is 1/10. I will never recommend anyone read this.
Music - 1/10
Only soundtrack of note is the OP, which is barely passable.
Art - 7/10
Pretty awesome art for its time, dynamic character movements and blinking do contribute to immersion.
Characters - 3/10
Sumika is a treasure of a childhood friend who understands Takeru and has been with him since day 1, which is quite solid wife material if you ask me. The absolute peak of this VN.
Meiya's character development is also quite enjoyable, especially the part where she grows with and adapts to Takeru and Sumika, and the development of her friendship with Sumika is one of the highlights of the VN. However everything she does is pretty annoying. Promising to marry someone after one day? Removing the entire neighbourhood? Eating expensive delicacies? Apologies, but I never found any of this funny.
Class Rep and Ayamine are annoying as hell.
Their routes have been explored in other visual novels and narrated more satisfyingly.
Tama's route was admittedly kind of cute.
Overall 3/10, I would only recommend someone read the Sumika/Meiya combined route, and even then I am hardpressed to give it a 2.
Enjoyment and emotional impact - 1/10
Only the scenes with Sumika were remotely funny.
I'd say 2/10 is a valid score.
My scoring philosophy is dependent on how much fun I had reading, and no offence to anyone but this MLE was a slog. "Generic and bland" is an euphemism for boring as hell, my score reflects that.
Next question I would like to address is whether I like moeges, to which I do not really know. To date my only moeges would be Making Lovers and Sanoba Witch, of which i gave of 5 and 6 respectively, which means I would recommend these titles. Make do of that information what you will.
I have to agree with what #5 said about he genericness of MLE adding flavour to MLU, and it is one of the reasons i rated ML 5/10, even though the titles are 2 and 6 respectively. The overall cohesion of both stories is passable at the end of the day.
In conclusion, a review is subjective in nature, and evidently dependent on the experiences of the reviewer.
0-1/10 means I either had NO fun, emotional impact, or the VN left a lot to be desired
10/10 means I had the most fun with this out of all visual novels, or it left a lasting impact.
Anyways, if any of you wants to see whether my method of reviewing is good enough, I will submit a review of MLA within the next 24 hours, see if you guys agree with me then.
|#7 by nirvaren|
2023-11-27 at 20:46
|< report >Obviously ratings are subjective so I'm not really criticizing, but I think it's interesting that what you describe as 0-1/10 in your definition is what I'd probably describe as anywhere from a 4-6/10.Last modified on 2023-11-27 at 20:46|
|#8 by Altarius|
2023-11-27 at 21:06
|< report >@6|
Man, you have discovered what that brand is really about. I've completed (to my sorrow) KimiNozo from the same guys, and I could write a text wall twice of yours, if I wasn't that lazy.
Overall their stories are cringy as hell, but nevertheless they somehow attract tons of fanboys. Some of them are complaining about "not so good remake" of KimiNozo, but I would cut 75% of its content and even then the novel would be like only 6/10.
|#9 by cheekyman07|
2023-11-27 at 21:49
|< report >#6 Thanks for confirming a fair few things that I expected to be answers, a lot of it is pretty relatable. I was more tolerant of Extra's antics myself so I was able to have fun with it. That lead me to be able to enjoy the rest to a decent level, might just be that my sense of humors on the more cringe/childish side so I end up laughing at stupid stuff more. |
But yeah, I can see how a fair bit of the absurdity could annoy a reader to no end, making it harder to enjoy overall. There were a few things you stated that were similar reasons for me lowering my score for Extra myself.
On that last part about if your reviewing is good enough, I mean the only bad ones in my book are like obvious troll/shitposts, or like no info or opinion on the game etc, just anything that is basically not a review. Yours was none of those, even then it's bad form for anyone to tell you 'how to review' something so imo no need to worry about that.
#7 Yeah im similar to you in that regard, that's where my lowest area is too. That kind of thing is what leads to some misunderstandings when it comes to others, and the reason for my general indifference to others scores.Last modified on 2023-11-27 at 21:55
|#10 by TLG12317|
2023-11-28 at 10:08
|< report >#7 and #9|
HAHAHAHA if your lowest areas are 4-6/10, then there should be zero reason for me to read anything you guys rated 1/10, and I can take solace in that fact.
|#11 by cheekyman07|
2023-11-28 at 11:14
|< report >Honestly there are probably a couple on my list that I really could have given a 1 gotta be real, like dumpster fire bad lol, but it would just be a fully personal 1 and kinda mean less to me. Then stuff I actually legit would have given a 1 but I end up dropping them so early that there's no point bothering to rate. I try to avoid the worst stuff so idk if ill ever stumble onto something so bad yet still actually reading more than a bit of it then leaving a 1 on tbh.Last modified on 2023-11-28 at 11:16|
|#12 by nirvaren|
2023-11-28 at 15:53
|< report >#10 Haha pretty much. Anything I vote below 5 I basically hated or was so bad that it's unsalvageable. Anything I gave a 5 I consider extremely bland and not worth talking about. But just like #11 says, my average rating is ~6.5 (which is a score I consider above average), because I generally don't read things that I don't think I'd like or if I do, end up dropping them.|